Religion.

John The Ax · Post by **John The Ax** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:59 pm

Nah, Goat, you should read the stuff written from the 1st century.

Post by **Dogbreath** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:18 pm

John The Ax wrote:
Also, when it comes to the Mary "thing", what's easier? And more effective, too. Asking your mom for a favor, or asking your dad?

I ask my dad. If it really matters, I need more than a yes or a no. Yes, sometimes he does say no, but he has a reason, a plan in it all. I treasure his wisdom more than simply getting a "yes."

Far more so, I treasure the wisdom and desernment of an unfailible, perfect God far more than simply getting a "yes" from a mortal being.

Bobo · Post by **Bobo** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:13 pm

Blaa, and double blaa. now you've got me confused!!!!

Bogbreath, you are wholly correct. GOD SHALL DEEL WITH THE PEOPLE. Christianity is a personal relationship, not with his mother.... Religion shouldn't control everything, but we should live by them, and in the act of doing so, the religion is the control. IT's so hard putting thoughts to Words!!!! Pope shmope. "no punishment" is going to unkown_k's post. No ya don't ask Mary nothing!!! God is Kindy, Gentle, wise, and FAIR IN JUDGEING!!!!!!!!! God is in everthing, yet he isn't them.

The guys who yelled for Jesus's death (in the act they killed him) could have been brided or didn't like Jesus any more. We don't really know it was only an Idea!!!! I'm CHRISTAIN NOT CATHOLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, now I'm ready for more.

You make your own desitions, yet he knows all. He will chasen you if you have done wrong. That's why we sin, we make are own desitions!!!!!!
I NEED A CHATROOM!!!!!!!!!WEBBASED!!!!!!!!!!! I don't believe in the pope or priest doing anything, but helping you, to get close to God himself!!!!!!!!!

Unknown_K · Post by **Unknown_K** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:41 pm

The whole part I dont get is how a "GOD " can have so many "human" qualities.

The ten commandments are interesteing, 7 are pretty much no brainers on doing the right thing, but the first 3 are interesting.

1. I am the Lord they GOD. Though shalt not have strange gods before me.

Basically thats saying forget your old gods (and there used to be a bunch through the ages.. if they were not real then why even associate yourself with the name GOD in the first place) I am the new king and I better not catch you looking at any others. This is basicallly what a human tyrant would say and think. A true benevolent creater wouldnt need to resort to threats like that to get his teaching out.

2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord they GOD in vain.

Basically dont use the Lords name when you speak or write. Kind of like an old censorship campain. One guy writes into a book whatever they "say" god said and nobody can really dispute it without breaking rule #2.

3. Remember though keep the sabbath day.

Basically reserver 1 day to pray to the big cheif so you dont forget he is the big chief. The day is setup so you cant work so you associate a day off with god doing you a favor. Why would a creater want his creation to worship him in the first place? Only humans would want that.

Why list the first 3 in the other they are in? The last 7 are more important.

Why is it if you dont follow these rules your going to rot in hell? More threats if you dont conform to the rules. Thats a very human way of thinking.

Kazer0 · Post by **Kazer0** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:42 pm

Bobo wrote:Blaa, and double blaa. now you've got me confused!!!!

Bogbreath, you are wholly correct. GOD SHALL DEEL WITH THE PEOPLE. Christianity is a personal relationship, not with his mother.... Religion shouldn't control everything, but we should live by them, and in the act of doing so, the religion is the control. IT's so hard putting thoughts to Words!!!! Pope shmope. "no punishment" is going to unkown_k's post. No ya don't ask Mary nothing!!! God is Kindy, Gentle, wise, and FAIR IN JUDGEING!!!!!!!!! God is in everthing, yet he isn't them.

The guys who yelled for Jesus's death (in the act they killed him) could have been brided or didn't like Jesus any more. We don't really know it was only an Idea!!!! I'm CHRISTAIN NOT CATHOLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, now I'm ready for more.

You make your own desitions, yet he knows all. He will chasen you if you have done wrong. That's why we sin, we make are own desitions!!!!!!
I NEED A CHATROOM!!!!!!!!!WEBBASED!!!!!!!!!!! I don't believe in the pope or priest doing anything, but helping you, to get close to God himself!!!!!!!!!

I'm CHRISTAIN NOT CATHOLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

ha ha.. thats funny.

Its Christian Catholic

Post by **Dogbreath** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:14 pm

Bobo wrote:Blaa, and double blaa. now you've got me confused!!!!

Calm down and read through it again. It is perfectly understandible.

Bogbreath, you are wholly correct. GOD SHALL DEEL WITH THE PEOPLE.

Heh, that's *D*ogbreath, and I'm glad we have that settled.

Christianity is a personal relationship, not with his mother.... Religion shouldn't control everything, but we should live by them, and in the act of doing so, the religion is the control.

??? I'm not quite sure what you mean. First you say they shouldn't, then you say they are?

I disagree here. Yes, our society is founded around religious principles, but religion it's self and religious leaders should not be given control, Christianity is only true Christianity if the decisions come from the heart. If someone is forced to follow the principles, as it was in middle age europe with the church, it becomes a form of a corrupt facist government, not a religion.

IT's so hard putting thoughts to Words!!!!

And it's difficult understanding you. You should take a composition class, I did and it helped me immencely. Basically, they start simply and teach you how to compose your ideas for writting. I'm sure your purpose is good here, but without properly being able to transcribe your thoughts to words, you aren't ever going to get it out clearly.

Pope shmope.

Heh, heh. Agreed.

God is Kindy, Gentle, wise, and FAIR IN JUDGEING!!!!!!!!! God is in everthing, yet he isn't them.

Yes, God is all of these things, but as I said before, we are not in a position to do this, it is something that only God should is allowed to do. We as Christians are not to position ourselves as judges of others, if we do, we claim God's position which is a sin. Remember this and we'll get along just dandy.

The guys who yelled for Jesus's death (in the act they killed him) could have been brided or didn't like Jesus any more. We don't really know it was only an Idea!!!!

Yes, they were bribed, or at least seduced by the "popular" religious movement of the crowd. However, if you care to actually read the Bible, Jesus WAS killed for claiming to be the King of the Jews, thus upsetting the religious leaders of the day.

I'm CHRISTAIN NOT CATHOLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

You mean you are Protestent, not Catholic. Both are Christian, technically.

Ok, now I'm ready for more.

I doubt it. You've contridicted yourself, your faith, and logic several times in your arguments. You also seem to be having trouble making an actual point, it seems to fluctuate between several different viewpoints at once. Finally, you sent me a IM stating "Let me guess, you have no religion at all." (without the comma, of course) simply because I attested that power and control belongs to government, not religion, *despite* using ideas taught by Moses, Jesus and Paul to support it! (Moses' (and later Saul/Davids) laws on how the High Priest and the King could not claim the others position, "Render to Ceaser what is Ceasers, and God what is God's." -Jesus (I.e, don't give what belongs to the government to control to religion, and don't give things that belong in religion to the government to decide, and finally Pauls concept of people submitting theirselves to higher powers ("Submit your selves therefore to the powers that be, for there is no power greater than God, and all power that is is ordained by God)

You make your own desitions,

Desitions? I'm going to interpet this as you saying that we all are in control of what we ourselves do and the masters of our own fate. Very true, also, we have all chosen to rebel against God which leads me to the next point:

yet he knows all. He will chasen you if you have done wrong. That's why we sin, we make are own desitions!!!!!!

No, judgement is a result of our sin, not a cause. I'm amazed that you think that it is God that causes us to sin... In any case, because we have all sinned, God sent Jesus to save us from the punishment of our sin. Because of him, my life is new, I have another chance, a reason to live because I am rescued from the "chasen" that I would otherwise have to face.

I NEED A CHATROOM!!!!!!!!!WEBBASED!!!!!!!!!!!

What's wrong with IRC? It's much faster. Join #Dosgames (server Austnet (www.Austnet.org/) Unix Port: 6667) sometime, I'm sure someone there will be willing to debate this realtime with you.

Bobo · Post by **Bobo** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:43 pm

Thanks, Dogbreath you don't know how much, you do for me.

??? I'm not quite sure what you mean. First you say they shouldn't, then you say they are?

We govern ourselves. Instead of one MAN governing us it is I who govern I and YOU who GOVERN YOU. And God judges you for your GOVERNING.

Yes, God is all of these things, but as I said before, we are not in a position to do this, it is something that only God should is allowed to do. We as Christians are not to position ourselves as judges of others, if we do, we claim God's position which is a sin. Remember this and we'll get along just dandy.

Yes, again I agree.

Yes, they were bribed, or at least seduced by the "popular" religious movement of the crowd. However, if you care to actually read the Bible, Jesus WAS killed for claiming to be the King of the Jews, thus upsetting the religious leaders of the day.

The "pastors" of the day, hated Jesus, because they thought he would make Israel the "world power", But he didn't and YES I do read!!!!!

You mean you are Protestent, not Catholic. Both are Christian, technically.

Yes very "Technically".

Desitions? I'm going to interpet this as you saying that we all are in control of what we ourselves do and the masters of our own fate. Very true, also, we have all chosen to rebel against God which leads me to the next point:

No, judgement is a result of our sin, not a cause. I'm amazed that you think that it is God that causes us to sin... In any case, because we have all sinned, God sent Jesus to save us from the punishment of our sin. Because of him, my life is new, I have another chance, a reason to live because I am rescued from the "chasen" that I would otherwise have to face.

I MAKE MYSELF SIN. NOT GOD! WE ARE CHASENED ON EARTH and rewarded in Heaven.

Post by **Dogbreath** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:07 pm

We govern ourselves. Instead of one MAN governing us it is I who govern I and YOU who GOVERN YOU. And God judges you for your GOVERNING.

So I see, thanks for clearing that up.

The "pastors" of the day, hated Jesus, because they thought he would make Israel the "world power", But he didn't and YES I do read!!!!!

Actually, they were more afraid of him becoming a world power than they were disapointed he didn't. The reason for this was because his teachings were radical and went against their legalistic system that no one could keep. (in addition to the commandments of God, they had "added" over 200 laws which had nothing to do with God but instead control and elevated them to commandment level. Jesus was opposed to this and they feared that his oposition could remove them from power if he was to become King of the Jews (little did they know that it was his death that was actually the turning point on this little fact)) It was, sadly, the deciples that were disapointed in him not being a world leader.

Yes very "Technically".

Hmmm... I've met many cathlolics nowadays who are "Christian" (see JTA), it's just that many of the people are in it just to "get religion" or power, not truly to seek God.

No, judgement is a result of our sin, not a cause.

Read again. In an earlier post you (probably mis-) stated that you thought it was the cause.

You said:
"He will chasen you if you have done wrong. That's why we sin"

Da_Goat · Post by **Da_Goat** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:42 pm

Jeez, too bad this isn't a topic on religion, or else we would have many on-topic posts....

Post by **Dogbreath** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:59 pm

Yeah, maybe someone would go as far to actually post about Iraq or somthin'.

Kazer0 · Post by **Kazer0** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:35 am

Iraq is bad.

486 player · Post by **486 player** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:00 am

Are W and Blair better?

Bobo · Post by **Bobo** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:36 pm

Would you want me to rename this topic religion and start a new topic called "The war on Iraq + North Korea + and that cooky guy Bin-Laden"

I think I will. Ok I will.

John The Ax · Post by **John The Ax** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:52 pm

Unknown_K wrote:The whole part I dont get is how a "GOD " can have so many "human" qualities.

The ten commandments are interesteing, 7 are pretty much no brainers on doing the right thing, but the first 3 are interesting.

1. I am the Lord they GOD. Though shalt not have strange gods before me.

Basically thats saying forget your old gods (and there used to be a bunch through the ages.. if they were not real then why even associate yourself with the name GOD in the first place) I am the new king and I better not catch you looking at any others. This is basicallly what a human tyrant would say and think. A true benevolent creater wouldnt need to resort to threats like that to get his teaching out.

No, people are stupid. They need to be told and warned. Remember when Moses went up the mountain (if you've read the bible at all) The people made and worshipped a gold calf. You have to also understand that the Jewish people did not have any other gods but God himself. (Man, that sounds weird) This was a warning about bowing down before other ones. The 50 million times that they are under captivity, they are often asked to bow down before the captor's gods. Also, that is why early Christians were persecuted, they refused to recognise any Roman gods as being real.

2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord they GOD in vain.

Basically dont use the Lords name when you speak or write. Kind of like an old censorship campain. One guy writes into a book whatever they "say" god said and nobody can really dispute it without breaking rule #2.

What do you mean? It means saying stuff like "Jesus Christ!" as an expression of emotion, or "Goddamn" is a sin. Not writing his name down. You just totally misinterpreted that one.

3. Remember though keep the sabbath day.

Basically reserver 1 day to pray to the big cheif so you dont forget he is the big chief. The day is setup so you cant work so you associate a day off with god doing you a favor. Why would a creater want his creation to worship him in the first place? Only humans would want that.

That's because, if we didn't, we'd fall away from him. It's about staying close, not worshipping him. We can't do him any favors, he made us, there's nothing to give him in return for that. Remember, God himself rested on the seventh day. It's the day he set aside for rest for himself. And he's God. Why would he want us to worship him? Because he cares about us, if we didn't, we'd surely become weak in faith. He doesn't want us in hell, it was not his intention to create it in the first place, much less for us to fall into sin.

Why is it if you dont follow these rules your going to rot in hell? More threats if you dont conform to the rules. Thats a very human way of thinking.

Because we didn't listen to his warnings. He and satan are enemies, and nothing unpure may enter heaven. If you go too far, that's what hell is for. That means you did not accept God as your savior; you loved material life much more. So you're saying people are better off raping their neighbors' wives and stealing their neighbors' goods? Are you an anarchist? Do you not believe in punishment, or what? People who steal go to jail. Do you have a problem with that? Do you think stealing should be legal? There are consequences for your actions.

Unknown_K · Post by **Unknown_K** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:29 pm

John The Ax wrote:
Unknown_K wrote:The whole part I dont get is how a "GOD " can have so many "human" qualities.

The ten commandments are interesteing, 7 are pretty much no brainers on doing the right thing, but the first 3 are interesting.

1. I am the Lord they GOD. Though shalt not have strange gods before me.

Basically thats saying forget your old gods (and there used to be a bunch through the ages.. if they were not real then why even associate yourself with the name GOD in the first place) I am the new king and I better not catch you looking at any others. This is basicallly what a human tyrant would say and think. A true benevolent creater wouldnt need to resort to threats like that to get his teaching out.
No, people are stupid. They need to be told and warned. Remember when Moses went up the mountain (if you've read the bible at all) The people made and worshipped a gold calf. You have to also understand that the Jewish people did not have any other gods but God himself. (Man, that sounds weird) This was a warning about bowing down before other ones. The 50 million times that they are under captivity, they are often asked to bow down before the captor's gods. Also, that is why early Christians were persecuted, they refused to recognise any Roman gods as being real.

2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord they GOD in vain.

Basically dont use the Lords name when you speak or write. Kind of like an old censorship campain. One guy writes into a book whatever they "say" god said and nobody can really dispute it without breaking rule #2.
What do you mean? It means saying stuff like "Jesus Christ!" as an expression of emotion, or "Goddamn" is a sin. Not writing his name down. You just totally misinterpreted that one.

3. Remember though keep the sabbath day.

Basically reserver 1 day to pray to the big cheif so you dont forget he is the big chief. The day is setup so you cant work so you associate a day off with god doing you a favor. Why would a creater want his creation to worship him in the first place? Only humans would want that.
That's because, if we didn't, we'd fall away from him. It's about staying close, not worshipping him. We can't do him any favors, he made us, there's nothing to give him in return for that. Remember, God himself rested on the seventh day. It's the day he set aside for rest for himself. And he's God. Why would he want us to worship him? Because he cares about us, if we didn't, we'd surely become weak in faith. He doesn't want us in hell, it was not his intention to create it in the first place, much less for us to fall into sin.

Why is it if you dont follow these rules your going to rot in hell? More threats if you dont conform to the rules. Thats a very human way of thinking.
Because we didn't listen to his warnings. He and satan are enemies, and nothing unpure may enter heaven. If you go too far, that's what hell is for. That means you did not accept God as your savior; you loved material life much more. So you're saying people are better off raping their neighbors' wives and stealing their neighbors' goods? Are you an anarchist? Do you not believe in punishment, or what? People who steal go to jail. Do you have a problem with that? Do you think stealing should be legal? There are consequences for your actions.

Yes most people are stupid, and will believe anything you tell them and whatever they read. Which braught me to point 2 which I interpret as dont write anything bad about god or saying anything bad about god (just because you think one way and I think another of this saying doesnt maker either point any less valid). And this is re-enforced with part 3 which IS about worshipping GOD, what do you do in church but worship god?

The point I was making is right of the bat we have 10 commandments. Not rules for living your life but COMMANDMENTS as in DO EXACTLY WHAT I SAY OR ELSE. I guess you missed the part about the 7 other commandments being no brainers, as in I beleive they should be followed for a soceity to live in harmony. But the first 3 are basically the same concepts used by kings of the past to keep their peasants and slaves in order. I am the boss, dont ever let me catch you writing or saying anything bad about me, and 1 day a week I expect you to come to my place and re-affirm points 1 and 2.

I dont even want to get into the parts of the bible where people have to sacrifice thier kid, are told not to eat fruit off of a tree on a whim etc. If you really love something then set it free. If there is an all mighty GOD that created man and the planets and animals etc he would not act like a tyrant to those creatures he created. The 10 commandments would sound alot better if there were only 7. Everything as written sounds like it was made up from people in the mindset of surfdom in the middle ages. Back when the church was more evil then good in my opinion, and was used by kings to keep the poor peasants in line.. just like some muslim spiritual leaders today keep their poor and stupid people in line while they rape them for all their resources and live like corrupt gods.

I am not arguing there is or isnt a god, all I am saying is that the texts written saying they are GODS words are most likely not, and serve the people who wrote them more then they serve you. People should do what they need to do for a just life and to live in piece with their neighbors, not by feer of rotting in hell for minor infractions of "the book(s)" written by people in the middle ages. Words are easy to mis interpret, or make into whatever you want to believe. Especially when translated from roman and jewish languages in to later latin and then english. If you really wanted to believe in something you can twist the words to mean anything you want.

I used to work with an asshole years ago that beat his wife and beat his kids (all 11 of them) and denied them medical care and he would ALWAYS quote passages of the bible saying he was correct in every thing he ever did. His family was dirt poor because he had 11 kids becuase he said if god didnt want him to have any more kids his wife would not get pregnant every 9 months. His wife had to agree with anything he said or he would beat her because he was the man of the house, then quoted some crap from the bible to back him up.

Bobo · Post by **Bobo** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:22 pm

Yes most people are stupid, and will believe anything you tell them and whatever they read. Which braught me to point 2 which I interpret as dont write anything bad about god or saying anything bad about god (just because you think one way and I think another of this saying doesnt maker either point any less valid). And this is re-enforced with part 3 which IS about worshipping GOD, what do you do in church but worship god?

You spread God's word out to the people. Non-Christians or Catholics, come to church. That is the whole point of the church. You praise God by Acts and not always by words.

I dont even want to get into the parts of the bible where people have to sacrifice thier kid, are told not to eat fruit off of a tree on a whim etc. If you really love something then set it free. If there is an all mighty GOD that created man and the planets and animals etc he would not act like a tyrant to those creatures he created. The 10 commandments would sound alot better if there were only 7. Everything as written sounds like it was made up from people in the mindset of surfdom in the middle ages. Back when the church was more evil then good in my opinion, and was used by kings to keep the poor peasants in line.. just like some muslim spiritual leaders today keep their poor and stupid people in line while they rape them for all their resources and live like corrupt gods.

Your talking about Abraham, right? God told him to go to this mountain and sacrifice his only son, Iseac. It was a test us obedeince. In the end he didn't kill his son.

The fruit was "The fruit of Good and Evil". When they ate of it, they would die. So Eve comes waltzing up to the tree. There a serpant called to her saying. Eat this, and God didn't really say you would die. So she ate it. Then she gave the fruit to Adam who ate it and they plundged into sin. It was a "whim" to save them from sin. The story is a lot more indepth, so look at Genesis.

Muslim religion is totally corrupt. The root of the muslims start way back in the beginning of the Bible. God promised Abraham a great nation, but Abe's wife was really old, and she thought that she couldn't have a baby. So she told Abe to sleep with her servant, and she had a child. Who start the muslim religion.

I am not arguing there is or isnt a god, all I am saying is that the texts written saying they are GODS words are most likely not, and serve the people who wrote them more then they serve you. People should do what they need to do for a just life and to live in piece with their neighbors, not by feer of rotting in hell for minor infractions of "the book(s)" written by people in the middle ages. Words are easy to mis interpret, or make into whatever you want to believe. Especially when translated from roman and jewish languages in to later latin and then english. If you really wanted to believe in something you can twist the words to mean anything you want.

Very good logic, but it has a flaw. God woudn't want his word corrupted. So he wouldn't of let it happen.

I used to work with an asshole years ago that beat his wife and beat his kids (all 11 of them) and denied them medical care and he would ALWAYS quote passages of the bible saying he was correct in every thing he ever did. His family was dirt poor because he had 11 kids becuase he said if god didnt want him to have any more kids his wife would not get pregnant every 9 months. His wife had to agree with anything he said or he would beat her because he was the man of the house, then quoted some crap from the bible to back him up.

God lets you make your own decisions. Then he judges you by them. Yes, it does say, The wives are to submit to there husbens. It also says there are wolves in the flock descized as sheap. If he was a saved person God will chasen him, but if he isn't he will burn in the lake of fire (with satan and his dark angels).

John The Ax · Post by **John The Ax** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:57 pm

Yes, it says "Wives, submit to your husbands" but remember, it also says "Husbands, respect your wives". Just one person's actions prove nothing. If you saw us supporting him, that would be a problem. But we are not, we hope he repents and is saved, but there are no guarantees.

Post by **Dogbreath** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:14 pm

Unknown_K: I'm sorry you had such a crummy example of a Christian for a workmate but, your argument here is logically false. You are using the Hay-man arguement here... essentially, you are judging an entire faith by the actions of a few people. The pope, the preists you speak of, your work companion, despite what they have done are only a small part of a huge faith... we are all eligible to sin, just because we are redeemed doesn't mean we are perfect, there are bound to be a good deal of bad apples in any movement. (This is, once again, why I am against "religion" in its man-made, organized, controlled form. To many people simply take up a faith simply so they can have the protection of "the church" to shield whatever wrong they do.)

Kazer0 · Post by **Kazer0** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:26 pm

Woah! Am i outta wack with thi topic. A lot of reading...... im not gunna read it.

N e who....

Originally, there were somthing like 17 commandments. Not just the 10 we know today.

Post by **Dogbreath** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:29 pm

Kazer0: Let me guess, you got that from a movie on Comedy Network? As far as (real, not comically fabricated) history indicates, the 10 we have are all the ones that have been.