All humans are equal but some humans are more equal .....

[Santhosh CHRiS]

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090815/91 ... ned-a.html

This kind of bull has got to stop. Sharukh Khan is THE biggest stars of Bollywood and globally recognized icon of the Indian Film Industry!!

Our former president Abdul Kalam was once asked to remove his shoes at an airport in order to inspect whether he had any weapons on him. This sort biased checking just because of their Muslim names has to stop and people need to be less ignorant and stop thinking all Muslim people are linked with terrorists!

[Dogbreath]

*shrugs* I've been detained for about an hour and a half at the U.S./Canadian border. And I'm a friggin Aryan. I don't really think it's anything racial (like the article implies), and I certainly don't think celebrities should get easy treatment just for being famous. If you're detained, you go along with the search and questioning, and wait until it's finished. You don't throw a fit because you're famous.

[dosraider]

You don't throw a fit because you're famous.

Oh yeah you do, otherwise you won't be on the news.

[Santhosh CHRiS]

*shrugs* I've been detained for about an hour and a half at the U.S./Canadian border. And I'm a friggin Aryan. I don't really think it's anything racial (like the article implies), and I certainly don't think celebrities should get easy treatment just for being famous. If you're detained, you go along with the search and questioning, and wait until it's finished. You don't throw a fit because you're famous.

Funny... I never heard Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt go through with anything like this when they visited India. Infact they were treated like Gods.

And what about ex-presidents of a Nation then? How'd you like it if we Indians checked Bill Clinton's shoes for drugs or his body for bombs. We would never do that It's borderline stupidity and extremely offensive to another country His wife Hilary recently visited India and she got the red carpet treatment with with anything but flower petals thrown at her feet and she barely even ran for presidency.

Btw Sharukh Khan and Abdul Kalam were not angry about this at all and were perfectly fine with it, but we Indians take great pride in these men who have achieved a lot more than the average man... so yeah some people are a little bit more important and respect is rightly deserved.

Abdul Kalam btw was a fisherman's son who fought through extreme poverty to educate himself, get a decent job, and eventually become President of India. After great hardship he made his name, only to be checked by a foreign airport and treated like he was just another Indian guy

[Dogbreath]

we Indians take great pride in these men who have achieved a lot more than the average man... so yeah some people are a little bit more important and respect is rightly deserved.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,...

Different cultural values? *shrugs*

I remember a recent photo I saw of our president, Obama, ordering lunch at a burger joint in Virginia. Even though he's the president, he still had to wait in his turn in line in the busy restaurant.

I don't think it's a matter of deliberate disrespect, in fact, I don't really think the TSA agents knew who these guys even were. (I certainly don't) They treat them exactly like average Indian guys because, in the eyes of the law, that's exactly what they are.

I used to work for one of the largest S&H companies in the world, and one day the president of the company visited to give a speech. I remember because I was leaving the building at the same time he was, and he got right behind me in the line going through the metal detectors at the door, and took out his keys and wallet like everyone else. It didn't matter that he *ran* the company and is one of the most powerful men in the USA - it would've been disrespectful of him to just take a security door and bypass all of us workers.

Here movie stars and famous politicians get speeding tickets like everyone else and are arrested for breaking the laws. Sadly, we also have a certain favoritism, as can be seen with cases like O.J. Simpson, but cases like that typically outrage the population rather than reaffirm that celebrities are a special class of people above the law.

As a point of fact, ANYONE flying on a commercial airlines flight in the USA has to remove their shoes to board - from random nobodies up to the president. It's not something they single out, it's just required to pass security. It's by no means a sign of disrespect.

After great hardship he made his name, only to be checked by a foreign airport and treated like he was just another Indian guy Sad

But, he is just another Indian guy though. Isn't that the beauty of democracy? I'm totally unfamiliar with the caste system, and don't know what ramifications it has on how you perceive some people to be above others, but I can respect it... and maybe you can respect countries where everyone is equal? Just live and let live.

BTW, I'd be completely happy with them making Bill Clinton take off his shoes - so long as they make him keep his pants on! Heck, that could have solved a lot of problems!

[Santhosh CHRiS]

BTW, I'd be completely happy with them making Bill Clinton take off his shoes - so long as they make him keep his pants on! Heck, that could have solved a lot of problems!

And try to keep him away from bitches like Monica Lewinsky while you're at it lol or he'll start another war somewhere in the middle east just to divert the public's attention

Yeah I guess the cultures are very different from yours. But you can't say a citizen who works 10 hours a day to earn an honest living is equal to a bum who does no work and sits around drinking all day. They are both humans yes, biologically speaking, but no way does the bum and the honest citizen deserve the same respect in society. There are certain levels you have to maintain even in democracy.

[Dogbreath]

Yeah I guess the cultures are very different from yours. But you can't say a citizen who works 10 hours a day to earn an honest living is equal to a bum who does no work and sits around drinking all day. They are both humans yes, biologically speaking, but no way does the bum and the honest citizen deserve the same respect in society. There are certain levels you have to maintain even in democracy.

No, I'd say that legally, they're exactly the same.

The amount of personal respect you decide to show them is entirely optional, and of course the hardworking citizen is rewarded with money, prestige, comfort, etc.

But in the eyes of the law, they have equal footing, and should be treated the same. They're both humans, and are both entitled to the same dignity and rights granted by their government. As soon as you make ANY cut-off point where you say "these people aren't really humans", you institutionalize a class system. And that can always be turned against you, always.

Integrity is *everything*, both in personal and official morality, and as soon as you sacrifice that integrity because the defendant/suspect is a celebrity/politician/drunk/bum/nigger/spic/Jew/Muslim/whatever and decide to that equality under the law need not apply, you've damaged the very foundation on which our (American) society is based. This has sadly happened many times in our history, but it's never been a good thing.

Now as I said, I can respect the fact that Indian society is entirely based on the fact that some people are born Brahmins, and some are born untouchable, and every caste in between, and that you believe a persons status determines how he ought to be treated (pretty much the exact opposite of western democracy), but I refuse to agree with it or think America should change it's customs to suit Indian beliefs. The idea is actually fairly abhorrent to me.

[dosraider]

And here comes the topic split .......

....... Animal Farm someone?

[Santhosh CHRiS]

Yeah I guess the cultures are very different from yours. But you can't say a citizen who works 10 hours a day to earn an honest living is equal to a bum who does no work and sits around drinking all day. They are both humans yes, biologically speaking, but no way does the bum and the honest citizen deserve the same respect in society. There are certain levels you have to maintain even in democracy.

No, I'd say that legally, they're exactly the same.

The amount of personal respect you decide to show them is entirely optional, and of course the hardworking citizen is rewarded with money, prestige, comfort, etc.

But in the eyes of the law, they have equal footing, and should be treated the same. They're both humans, and are both entitled to the same dignity and rights granted by their government. As soon as you make ANY cut-off point where you say "these people aren't really humans", you institutionalize a class system. And that can always be turned against you, always.

Integrity is *everything*, both in personal and official morality, and as soon as you sacrifice that integrity because the defendant/suspect is a celebrity/politician/drunk/bum/nigger/spic/Jew/Muslim/whatever and decide to that equality under the law need not apply, you've damaged the very foundation on which our (American) society is based. This has sadly happened many times in our history, but it's never been a good thing.

Now as I said, I can respect the fact that Indian society is entirely based on the fact that some people are born Brahmins, and some are born untouchable, and every caste in between, and that you believe a persons status determines how he ought to be treated (pretty much the exact opposite of western democracy), but I refuse to agree with it or think America should change it's customs to suit Indian beliefs. The idea is actually fairly abhorrent to me.

Modern India does not believe in caste system. Infact it has been abollished since Gandhi's rein. Saying India still abhors untoucables is like asking if black people are still slaves in America or whether Native Americans are still hunted down by cowboys.

I myself am a B.C. Backward Caste but have all the privilages and opportunities that a Brahmin has. Infact our government helps people like the poverty stricken people, the former untouchables and B.C. people (like me) by giving us government grants and free education provided we work for it. There are also handicap or people with disablilties quotas.

All I am saying is that humans (regardless of caste, color, or creed) who work hard deserve more from the government than someone who doesn't. The law should favor the people who work for a living or atleast trying to get a job. In UK I heard the government pays some people just for sitting on their asses drinking. This has led to a lot of lazy ignorant people who survive solely on that income. They don't develop and neither do they help the country in any way either. They are also very racist and prevent any Indians, or any Asian people from working there. My friend Ram was a victim of it. In Australia it's even worse where hardworking Indian workers and students are being tortured everyday by such ignorant slobs.

I'd also like to add that India's leadership ethics is far different to the American one. Pakistan has always bombarded India with terrorists, but though we fight against them, we do not wage war against their whole country and invade on innocent people like America did with Afghanistan... and for some reason with Iraq just to settle old scores with Saddam and get oil at a good prices

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind Gandhi said.... you got statues of Gandhi in Newyork, California, make movies out of him or whatever but the presidents YOU elect can't follow that one single line

You expect the whole world to follow democracy and your technology. That's good. But why can't you people adopt non-violence, or Satyagraha and learn from the East for a change.

[Santhosh CHRiS]

And here comes the topic split .......

....... Animal Farm someone?

Thanks for the topic split. Yeah I love Animal Farm too. Read it twice. My favorite Orwell novel

[dosraider]

Thanks for the topic split.

To be clear: I don't agree with your point of view on the matter.
It's not because you're successful, rich, working or whatever and whatnots you're better or have more rights then others.
Also keep in mind that many of those 'successful' persons have a lot of rotting corpses hidden in a closet.
Many climb the 'social ladder' by crushing others.

[Santhosh CHRiS]

Thanks for the topic split.

To be clear: I don't agree with your point of view on the matter.
It's not because you're successful, rich, working or whatever and whatnots you're better or have more rights then others.
Also keep in mind that many of those 'successful' persons have a lot of rotting corpses hidden in a closet.
Many climb the 'social ladder' by crushing others.

I'm not talking about rich corrupt people or people who crush others to get to the top. They are the negative part of society worse than anyone and should be properly dealt with by authority. Ofcourse they always pay for the best lawyers in town to get them off the hook for anything. I mean... look at Snoop Dogg for instance. If nobody is above the law in America then how come so many Mafia gangs still get away with cold blooded murder everyday. Probably because the cops are corrupt and the lawyers cheat the jury and the judge in court. It's the same all over the world isn't it.

I only support the people who do honest work in general that's all. I dunno... but yeah I guess you are right in a way though. Being a bum who doesn't do anything is far better for humanity than being a scoundrel, a thief or a murderer

You are truly wise old man!

[dosraider]

... but yeah I guess you are right in a way though. Being a bum who doesn't do anything is far better for humanity than being a scoundrel, a thief or a murderer

You should stop putting words in my mouth, certainly when you apparently like to twist them completely.

It only can lower my opinion about you drastically.

[Santhosh CHRiS]

It only can lower my opinion about you drastically.

As if I could lower it any more than it already is lol. I'm just a poor singing Nigerian guy who sends emails making up stories and asking for donations to you anyway. Go start another poll to ban me why don't ya and this time make it for real. It shouldn't be hard after all you barely know me right. I'm a perfect stranger.... except when it comes time to ridicule everything I post here or put a label like "Village Idiot' over my avatar like you did a while ago

Anywayz back to the topic. I come from a land of many poor people, and there are many I truly respect. The ones that give a hard day's work. I once saw a blind girl selling biscuits and my heart really went for her so I immediately bought whatever she was selling. At the station there was some guy who looked perfectly fit but asked for money. I didn't give it to him. If I did, then what justice would there be in this world where a really handicapped girl is working for money, and some lazy bum is just looking for free hand outs.

I give money to artists on the streets making paintings on the wall, little children who do circus tricks, or just selling something. People who do something deserve more than people who do nothing. That is all I am trying to say dosraider. I am not as evil or twisted as you think

Anywayz I think I really should stop posting here and go back to being silent from now on. I'm not a normal guy. My thoughts are really really deep and extremely weird at times, but I swear my intentions are always good. I'm sadly one of those guys who thinks he can really make a difference in this world but doesn't really know how to go about doing it just yet.

Adios

[Larry Laffer]

CHRiS: You need to learn to differentiate between sarcasm, dislike, hatred and veiled humor in written texts. Not that dosraider is humorous, he's got as many funny bones as the average rock(for the record, that was a sarcastic remark).


On topic: I'm afraid that only in ideal societies will you find that all humans are equal. Sadly, there's no ideal society on this chunk'o rock we call home, mostly because there are corrupt people in influential positions.

Now that that settles the topic name, onto what you said, Santosh: You say that people who work hard doing whatever purposeful thing deserve more from the government than lazy bums. I'm afraid that's not the case. Since they work hard for something(unless they are complete dimwits and, in this case the same, if not worse as the lazy bums) that means they have some sort of incentive down the line(be it money to buy food for the day or saving for a fifth villa in Aspen). If said people work in a firm/corporation/whatever that is not in their direct control, hard working will probably bring them a promotion, if it doesn't, they should do the smart thing and move someplace where their efforts are acknowledged.

On the other hand, a lazy bum doing nothing does not have these benefits. He's just burning time waiting for others to help him(oh and by the way, I can triple assure you that what you had heard about the UK is very false).

The only instance where a government should step in and aid an individual is when due to various reasons he cannot aid himself(like somebody with a handicap, or the elderly/young in a state of extreme poverty). I'm not nailing anybody to the crux for giving money to the poor if they so please. It's their earned(through whatever means) money and they can do whatever they want with it. But it's always good to remember that you might, just might, give money to one of the lazy bums and encourage him to continue being a social parasite.


As to what started this topic: Just because you possess an influential function, you should not be treated differently by others simply based on said function. You claim it was biased checking. I claim it was standard procedure, but the mass media usually either "forgets" to mention it or simply claims that preferential treatment is a must towards certain people. That is a recurring flaw of the media, caused by the fact that a lot of news sources are created to sell first and inform later. You(Santosh) are a good-hearthed bloke but you need to stop listening to everything you see/read in the media. If I may quote Morpheus, "Free your mind!".








Edit, and stop being a pussy over what somebody said on the internet!

[CPT Worm]

I myself am a B.C. Backward Caste but have all the privilages and opportunities that a Brahmin has. Infact our government helps people like the poverty stricken people, the former untouchables and B.C. people (like me) by giving us government grants and free education provided we work for it. There are also handicap or people with disablilties quotas.

1. The fact that you know your caste says a lot.
2. The fact that you receive grants and education programs BECAUSE of your caste (apparently POSITIVE discrimination based on caste is acceptable) says that while the system might be off the books, it's still very alive.

But no reason to get butt-hurt over this. An actor got screened at an airport. The "randomness" might be an illusion, but it also effects other ethnic groups.

[Dogbreath]

Worm: as I said, I've been screened and interrogated before, as have other blond, white friends of mine. And I look like the Aryan ideal, and about as threatening as a teddy bear. I'm not denying there may be some disposition towards screening Muslims, but there is a good deal of randomness.

Santhosh: I think we're talking on two different levels here. You're talking about privileges and handouts, and I'm talking about rights and human dignity.

Should that lazy bum get government handouts when he can get a job? Well, everyone is different, and everyone has his own reasons, but: probably not. He can go find work.

Should that lazy bum be entitled to the same rights, the same legal representation, the same benefit of the doubt, the same due process as a billionaire? Yes. Absolutely.

I'm not stupid, I know the USA has hardly met that ideal, but the difference is that ideal is recognized and slowly being worked towards. The US strives to be a more perfect union, and while it often fails (and IMO, sometimes regresses), over the course of the past 230 years it's advanced towards that: abolition of slavery in 1863 (and 1865 from congress), equal rights for women in 1920, abolition of institutionalized racism in the 1960s, etc. Same for other western democracies, I certainly don't think the US is unique in this.

As far as caste: http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=26966

Denying people basic supplies because of their caste? No food, no water, no medicine? I know you're against handouts, but surely in the time of a disaster like the Tsunami was, you can ease up just a little? You can't tell me that the caste system no longer exists, and still maintain your "some people deserve more than others" mentality. It's simply not compatible, and it's just a new caste system, even if it's the reverse of the old one. (where you have the BC and untouchables as the highest)

In fact, as the article shows, it's generally the job of European and American missionaries/aid workers to feed/clothe/care for the poor in India because the upper castes simply refuse to be anywhere near them. And you can't claim that mass poverty and starvation are not severe problems India is facing.

Also, saw your comment towards dosraider and wanted to remind you not to take this debate personally. No one here is trying to insult you, just argue with your ideas.

[Santhosh CHRiS]

Look India might have it's flaws but the western ways aren't perfect either. The east has learned a lot from the west and trying to improve our ways, but the west is not implementing a single good thing from the east like non-violence, our patience, our willingness to talk things over than go immediately for war, our much more strict gun laws, even our Ayurveda medicine which has cured more patients than western medicine has.

India is a land of huge diversity.In the past there have been bad things like the caste system but the government is trying it's best to help the people who were once put down in the past by giving grants. Gradually they are removing all classifications altogether.

Also When a foreigner visits India he is highly respected, but when an Indian visits America, or England, Australia (especially Australia) he looked down upon. It's the sad fact. Indian students are getting beaten up in Australia even at this moment, even in this modern time.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 38,00.html

Recently after the 2001 attacks, my cousin was going to America. She and a few other Indian people were pulled aside the airport and asked to remove their shoes, their jackets, and checked thoroughly while the white passengers were allowed with little to no checking at all. One Muslim girl was questioned harshly again and again about her reasons for coming until she cried.

Some things deleted by ~dosraider, you have a topic about this specific subject, don't mix several topics please, THX.

Anywayz I let that slip. Then in this very topic he accuses me of twisting his words, and putting words in his mouth. Not to mention his opinion of me is being lowered because of my point of view.

[Dogbreath]

Maybe this needs to be a PM discussion between you and dosraider?

[Santhosh CHRiS]

Maybe this needs to be a PM discussion between you and dosraider?

Yes I think you are right. This sort of thing is between me and him and shouldn't be discussed in public.

Anywayz sorry for making you read all this folks.