U.S. Soldiers = examples of dignity, respect, and justice?

[Dogbreath]

The soldiers were the ones who decided to commit the atrocities. Unlike a body, each soldier has an independent brain and will and thus won't function as uniformly as one. In an ideal world-soldiers would always follow their orders. This isn't a perfect world and soldiers are perfect either-they're human like anyone else and thus a few are apt to be traitors.

Once again, idealistically the army would be much too efficient to allow such bad apples amoung the rest. However, at the time being the U.S. army is desperately short of men and the entrance standards are lower than ever.

Not to mention that no matter how strict the requirements-a few nutcases will always find way in. You can't blame the commanding officers (who, btw, are punishing them at the moment) for a crime that they didn't commit, didn't condone, didn't know about, and are trying to rectify at the moment.

If any evidence is found showing that the commanding officers covered it up, ordered it, or didn't punish it fully than by all means shoot the lousy bastards in the streets. If not, don't blame them for something they didn't do.

[Dogbreath]

OK who's correct, me or denrix?

If only it were that simple. The main problem with debate is both sides are almost always at least partially right...

[denrix]

I linked this thread to the same thread that I started on rift-tek.net, and here are the replies I got, regarding your posts here.
http://forums.rift-tek.net/index.php?sh ... =578&st=30

Yea, some of them are pretty stupid... But there are 2 sides to the story..

I dont know the case in Iraq and its not THAT deadly of a war for the americans but in say the Veitnam war my dad was young and on freighter ships and he was always docked in the soldiers R&R spots so he overhead alot of talking and stuff. Soldiers who 1st got to veitnam would see a villager and help them across the street in the middle of fighting. A few weeks later that same soldier who has just been fighting and seeing his friends blow to shit and people who look like civilians but all of a sudden that civilian shoots at you... That soldier who sees a villager running for cover will just shoot him instead of dealing with it. Now in no way am I saying this is right, just a reality that was faced.

Now this is a bit different because they are POW's and they are contained but they are young guys, their emotions probably are all fucked up. They were probably also given an order from high up to get information from the POW's by any means necessary. So its most likely not JUST the soldiers who are to blame. It is of course their fault, but its also the conditions they are in and the leaders in power telling them what and what not to do. I know, if you cant cope with the situation you shouldnt enlist in the army/military/whatever but the ones who do enlist probably dont expect to see what they see.

Now there was another argument going on in the news about them being a special unit devoted to POW treatment, that is really just a lable for them, they werent given any extra trainging on how to deal with POW's, they are just called that. So its not just the soldiers fault, I believe it was the Brigadeer General (the female) who was being courtmarshalled and she had nothign to lose at that point. She came forward and said that it all went higher up that her. They were following the command to get information out of the POW's.

I must say this again, IN NO WAY IS THIS RIGHT, but, things arent always how they seem. Im just posting this as my own oppinion on the situation, Im not responding to any previous posts, this is just my fresh start

I would go in there and post but I'm really not in the mood to sign up for another forum (I would happily include my contact information in my post, but noooooooo)

Anyway, one thing that Dogbreath seems to be overlooking...

Once again you blatantly ignore the fact that these soldiers *are* being punished. You make it out as if this behavior was encouraged, not criminalized. So what, 17 out of ~2,000,000 soldiers goofs up-whatta you expect them to be, angels?

It doesn't matter that we're slapping them on the wrists. Even if they get kicked out of the Army, the problems they caused are going to have vast repercussions all over the world. They're going to be one of the biggest reasons for a whole new slew of attacks which are going to kill countless more American soldiers and civilians.

Dogbreath basically makes it want to seem like it's no big deal. And, as a percentage, he's correct. 17 of 2,000,000 military personell is not a large percentage at all.

But he is inexusably glossing over the effect that this small percentage is going to have on the millions of already infuriated Arabs out there. Because of these 17 ass hats, anyone who was even remotely pissed at the US is going to be 10 times as pissed. That may just push him so far over the edge that they'll strap a bomb to their chest and stroll through a US checkpoint. 4 other soldiers are scheduled for the next flight on a C130 with a flag draped over their coffins.

There is no room for error in this public relations campaign. If Microsoft were to fuck up, big deal, they have enough money and power that they can make everything a-okay.

But in this game we're playing now, lives are at stake, not dollars. Those 17 idiots have put millions of US Soldiers in a heightened level of danger just because they're sadistic monkeys. They're not even human.

War is a horrible thing; as many people have said, these guys are seeing their best friends, their brothers and sisters being blown to shreds or shot by a seemingly faceless enemy. They're angry. But that really doesn't matter. The Geneva Convention was agreed upon not only because our POWs would be relatively safe, but because it keeps our battle-stricken troops from dipping to new lows and completely obliterating whatever moral high ground we would have held. The United States can NOT rebuild Iraq if EVERYONE hates us. It's hard enough when even a minority does.

I completly agree with that POV Dwayne. It has left a horrible image for the US and yes, more people will probably die cause of it. But I dont think that its just "Because of these 17 ass hats" that this will all happen. It is of course their fault but like I said before, it probably goes higher up than that and it probably works out to be like 20 or 30 ass hats that all contributed to it. What makes lots of it seem so one-sided I think are the pictures of them posing with thumbs up.... Thats what to me anyway makes it look like its just the soldiers doings...

Its all fucking redicioulus and POW's are supposed to be SAFE but apparently that is an idea that never fully came 'round.

People are pissed for the US being in there, look at the casualtie rates for american/allied troops now.. They are higher then when they did their first major attack on Iraq. You cant stop what is goign on when so many people are so devoted to their country, so devoted to Sadam and so againsed the US that they will strap explosives to themselves and go and blow up a check-point. You cant fight that. When they consider themsleves a marter (sp?) to do that because they think that it will grant them eternal life, there is no way to stop that. I dont think there will ever be a firm hold on Iraq, the fighting and suicie bombings will continue. Its still hapening in other parts of the world (Iran ect.) and that has been going on for how long?

[Dogbreath]

Your post about this forum there:

allright boys, need your help.
go here, http://www.dosgames.com/forum/viewtopic ... art-0.html . read the thread. a totally different reaction from what you said. (markos is me,btw. well, its just a spoof account i got there, dnirex is my main one there too). would it be much trouble blowing some sense into those guys? im pretty much alone against the george bush mob.
btw, their admins are ok with you posting there, so, please do.

Way to introduce. Yeah, some people in this thread are being jackasses (trying to justify it by blaming Islam) but hasn't it occurred to you that just because I disagree with your post doesn't automatically make me a George Bush mobster? Anyway, on to replying:

Dwayne:

The effect this will have on the Arab world bothers me as well. Dnirex (or Markos, if you prefer) compared the U.S.'s actions to Saddam Hussein’s genocide of the Kurds and the torture of his own people. While his claims are incredibly inaccurate, it's probably the same one that went through the mind of 90% of Iraqis and, admittedly, would probably go through mine if the same happened to U.S. POWs. That's why I used the 17 to 200,000 percentage, and why I think the very best response is to take care of the guilty SOBs and uncover EVERYTHING that happened there-the truth is the very best response we have.

I'd love to say that if we wave a wand and magically "fix" the U.S. army this sort of thing would never happen again. In truth, the Army is far too large, ineffective, and poorly resourced to do anything about it. I'm just as pissed off about it as the rest of you, and indignant about the violations of the Geneva Convention. But what can be done other than punishing the offenders and trying to get rid of those who'd do it again in the future?

Of course, the initial reaction that comes to mind is "never invade Iraq in the first place" but it's a bit too late to do that, eh?

As I already said, the best reaction is to tell the whole truth about it and punish anyone tied to the incident (even if goes all the way up to the president) and then whether whatever the response from the Arabic world is. After which get as many troops out of Iraq as you possibly can without causing a civil war.

While I sympathize with the passionate people like Dnirex who respond with uncontrolled emotions and anger about this incident, in the end such people will do more harm than good. Same for people like Thunderdog who say "those stupid motherfuckers deserved it," which is what most Arabs will think your average American is thinking and which is exactly the stereotype we DON'T need.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to post! I look foward to your reply.

[denrix]

Very astutely put. I only read up until the post I quoted, so I probably missed alot. From what I read, it seemed like he was down playing the importance of this act and their punishment, but in my opinion, it is necessary to hype up the importance. The Arab world needs to look at us and our reaction of disgust, dismay and disappointment and realize that we aren't like Thunderdog. But if we're saying "hey, lets calm down and be reasonable", they're going to think we're going to bullshit about things and smooth things over.

It's been my experience that rationality in the face of interminable anger does nothing more than increase that rage to absolute fury. Being rational is NOT what they want to see. They don't want to hear "yeah, but it was only 17 troops out of 2,000,000, but don't worry, we're going to reprimand them and dock them a few months pay." That's just going to serve to enrage them further. In effect, they're taking all of their frustration and all of their anger and using this single event to focus it. If we had done nothing wrong in the first place (from their point of view, not ours - to us, we haven't done ~too~ much wrong, but to them, we're really fucking up good and proper) and this had happened, they would probably be fairly apt to accept our apologies and understand that 17 men and women can NOT be the voice of an entire nation.

But, unfortunately, that isn't the case. We've angered them to no end (with both real and imagined events). We can't afford to be rational in this instance with the knowledge that so many of our sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, and friends are over there with their lives on the line. We need to make an example out of these soldiers, even if it's a fake, public relations example. We need to make it seem like our response is going to match their anger - or at least close enough that they will be able to accept that our ways are different and they can't have everything they want. But they want to see something meaningful - to them, and a slap on the wrist and a "dont' do that again" isn't going to suffice. As bad as things were looking before, they can only look worse now that this little incident happened. It really is inexcusable.

(And I rambled. I'm going to go grab a beer and watch some more Band of Brothers. Hi.)

[Dogbreath]

Does anyone know what the punishment is? I heard from at least 10 years jail time to life, depending on how much is actually proven. More than a slap on the wrist, but even the death penalty is less than what they deserve. Anyhow, I would reccomend that Dwayne read the entire thread if he wants to know my opinion on what should be done as punishment and who should be held accountable, since I'm too lazy to quote it here.

[denrix]

and to think that Im sweating my ass off here, copy pasting stuff. cmon, requote yourself, the most important stuff.

[Interon]

This topic could easily become 50 pages or so if we had certain members (who keep up with CNN stuff or whatever).

A breach has been made, and damage is pending. Maybe only time will tell what comes of it. It's so sad that it's like the ripple effect, drop a marble in the water and look at the shockwave.

Angry Arabs: The White House can only do so much, it's up to those guys to make attitude adjustments. Pending proper information relay.

The POW management: Perhaps more than just those 17 are to blame. Maybe.

The Rest: Maybe it's just as well to say, "We're outta here, take care of yourselves Iraq." if the situation is way way out of control.

The situation is precarious/volatile/fragile/unstable. There are so many things that can go wrong and this just happens to be one of them.

Something like 1 pound of imperfection translates into 50 tons of problems. Iraq might end up being like Vietnam.

[Dogbreath]

Dnirex: Can't they just read this thread? I read the topic on rift-tek and didn't have any problem. Actually, I would just sign up and continue the thread there (since there doesn't seem to be anyone seriously interested here) but I'm not sure if the admin there would approve of it.

[Dwayne]

Sorry I didn't register earlier, I was all running amok trying to get ready for graduation and then I was sort of in a state of limbo for a few days while it sunk in.

Anyway, Dogbreath, you are more than welcome to register at rift-tek.net . In general we're attempting to be a community of developers, but there are quite a few non developers hanging around just enjoying crazy conversations, so it's no big deal rift-tek.net is not a closed community, by any means.

Back to the topic at hand, I read a good bit more of this thread and I think I understand what you were saying, Dogbreath. For what it's worth, I also agree. But I've already rambled enough about my take on the situtation.

JMS brought up an interesting point:

Angry Arabs: The White House can only do so much, it's up to those guys to make attitude adjustments. Pending proper information relay.

Yes, the White House can only do so much. And if I felt they were even doing 1/16th of what was needed, I wouldn't be nearly so vicious towards the White House. The interesting thing is, I'm not a partisan jerk, either. I'd be just as furious if there were a Democrat or Independent in the Oval Office as I am now. I just don't agree with our foreign policy at all - although I do feel that recently the Neocon macho chest-thumpers are starting to realize that you can't take on the whole world. Maybe eventually Rumsfeld will be of less importance than Powell? I can only hope.

However, we can't blame all of the ills on the White House. If the various peoples around the world weren't inflamed by religious and political leaders seeking more power, perhaps the actions of the White House wouldn't seem so inept. If the "angry arabs" were a little more rational, maybe the relatively rational responses of our government would be dramatically more effective.

The point, however, is moot. As much as we'd like to say "yeah, well, we tried", it's just not good enough. It doesn't matter if the opposition is being irrational and, frankly, ridiculous. Life is like that sometimes. You can't just ignore it and you can't just quit. You have to play the game. And I really don't think the White House is doing enough of this. Sure, principles are one thing, but whenever the end result is going to end up in tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands (millions?) of lives, maybe it's time to come down off your high horse and start investigating a compromise.

(This, of course, brings up another issue that may bite me in the ass - the patriot act. I don't agree that our freedoms should be reduced just to save lives. I don't know that I have a rational reason why there's a difference between compromising principles when dealing with foreign relations but standing firm domestically, but I just do. Ah well.)

[denrix]

ok, why did the thread stop? no more nice ideas?

btw, check this out: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0, ... 97,00.html
according to that story, and the british soldiers who witness there, the tactics used in Iraq are standard procedure.
to quote,

The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.

The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."

I would really like to see your comments on this, Dogbreath, Mr.Show-Me-Proof-That-Whole-Army-Is-Involved....

[Dogbreath]

Could you be more specific about the sexual humiliation involved? Sexually humiliation is a common interrogation procedure among Middle Eastern POWs, who tend to be very sexually reserved. Having a female soldier disrobe in front of the prisoner, taunting, making crude comments, and other forms of offending their sexual sensibility are all regular processing’s and hardly anything not known about. Hell, we do the same to convicted criminals in the U.S.A. all the time, though it doesn’t have the same effects.

My main problem was with the malnutrition, beatings, torture, rape, forced sodomy, and murder. Could you be more specific about the exact procedures used?

[denrix]

read the damn article, not just the quote I posted?

[Dogbreath]

Did.

Using sexual jibes and degradation, along with stripping naked

are the only techniques they say were used anywhere outside of Abu Ghraib by U.S. forces. Which is why I wanted a more specific article... that one speaks of possible torture techniques that are taught in R2I (A U.S./British Special Forces training program), not what is actually going on in Iraqi prisons.[/quote]

[denrix]

dont you think that something like that would be difficult to find in a public article? that it probably is a high military secret routine? I would think so.

[denrix]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/stor...4078660,00.html

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - A video posted Tuesday on an Islamic militant Web site showed a group affiliated with al-Qaida beheading an American contractor in Iraq, saying the death was revenge for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

The video showed five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks, standing over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit - similar to a prisoner's uniform - who identified himself as Nick Berg, a U.S. contractor whose body was found on a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday.

``My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Susan,'' the man said on the video. ``I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia.''

After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting ``Allahu Akbar!'' - ``God is great.'' They then held the head out before the camera.

``For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused,'' one of the men read from a statement.

``So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way.''

The video bore the title ``Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American.'' It was unclear whether al-Zarqawi - a lieutenant of Osama bin Laden - was shown in the video, or was claiming responsibility for ordering the execution.

The Web site on which the video was posted is known as a clearing house for al-Qaida and Islamic extremist groups' statements and tapes.




The VIDEOS : NOTE: NOT FOR FAINT OF HEART

http://www.neukia.nl/movies/onthoofding.wmv
http://www.ogrish.com/ogrish-dot-com-ameri..._iraq_small.wmv

whichever of those works for you.

fucking shit. looks real as hell. FUCK!

[Thunderdog]

That video is THE SHIT, MAN!

Instant Replay!

[Bobo]

My question is: Who is taking these photos? I mean, why would we (americans) want to document this sorta stuff???

[denrix]

read it some where on the web, couple of days ago. the soldier who took the photos is one of the girls that appears in the photos themselves. apparently, sicne a child, she was obssessed with taknig pictures of corpses, and mutilated bodies. so, I guess it makes sense that she took the pics out of her own curiosity.

btw, this dont matter now. check out that gruesome video.

[Dogbreath]

They found his (headless) body recently, so I'll presume the clip is real. I strongly reccomend you do *NOT* watch it if you're weak of heart.

That video is THE SHIT, MAN!

Instant Replay!

How could you find the beheading of an innocent man enjoyable? You're just as sick as they are.