As if Intelligent Design wasn't enough...

[Moo]

First off let me say that I have nothing against relgious people. Secondly let me tell you that I believe that Intelligent design, the theory that "God" created the universe, is absolutely bull sh*t. I mean if they want to believe it, go ahead but teaching it in schools is just wrong for several reasons, some of the major reasons are because not all people are Christian and secondly it forces Christianity on people. Now those same crazy nut jobs are questioning gravity.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512/print/

[The_Sinister_Mastermind]

The thing I have against intelligent design is the fact that most people who believe in it, and that believe Darwin is wrong completely misunderstand what he said.

They generally think he said God doesn’t exist and we evolved from monkeys. So not true. All he said was organisms change over time. And using fossils this can be proven, as it can be proven we evolved from a common homosapien ancestor as the apes did. Now unless you’re a Jehovah’s Witness who believes that fossils are a trick of the devil designed to test your faith, it’s some pretty solid evidence.

[GameMaster.EXE]

Almost all religons want us to believe that their god made the earth and everything. Christianty, Judaism, or even Islam. But hey, if god made the universe, where was he before it? And where is this infamous garden of eden?

On the scientific side, there's the big bang theory that created the earth. Also, the people envolving from monkeys is also proven true by science. But where did the universe come from? Science doesn't know........yet.

Both sides of the arguement have there weaknesses. Religion doesn't tell us where god himself came from. Science doesn't tell us where the universe came from. So we, the people, are left to wonder.

[julie124]

Everyone has their own beliefs, I myself believe that when we die we are rencarnated. I do believe that we came from monkeys. I don't think I believe in God, cause to me, it's very hard to think that someone is the head over everyones fate and he created the world.... thats just weird how people think that one man could pull that off

[GameMaster.EXE]

Its all pretty much supernatural. They say god and the devil are higher beings than us, thats why we cant see them. Personally, I don't really believe that. Probably a cover up, no doubt.

[julie124]

I think the bible is just a fiction novel created to make people to have faith in the afterlife.... theres no way half of it is even true.... pfff virgin marry.. anyways some people might get pissed off in what Im saying so I will stop there

[emmzee]

Ooookay. First of all, we should all know by now that The Onion is a parody site, right? It's not real news.

... let me tell you that I believe that Intelligent design, the theory that "God" created the universe, is absolutely bull sh*t. I mean if they want to believe it, go ahead but teaching it in schools is just wrong for several reasons, some of the major reasons are because not all people are Christian and secondly it forces Christianity on people.

What intelligent design implies is existance of God (ie something greater than our known universe which is merely given the name "God" for the sake of not having to say "a cause for our known universe existing outside of it" all the time). It does not necessitate belief in Christianity. As GameMaster.EXE noted, any of the monothestic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Mormonism, etc) subscribe to intelligent design. So it is not a "christian thing" even though many of the most vocal people are Christians. Also, its worth noting that many/most Christians will not dismiss evolution entirely (ie micro-evolution) but do not concede that evolution on its own is a reasonable explanation for life.

I'll try to respond to some of the questions and opinions raised in this thread, hopefully it won't be too boring or longwinded for everyone here

But hey, if god made the universe, where was he before it?

This implies that God cannot exist outside of time. But if God created the universe, God would be the creator of time itself as we know it. This would not prevent God from acting in time, it only suggests that a God who is bound by our time could never create it.

On the scientific side, there's the big bang theory that created the earth.

This is actually evidence for intelligent design and evidence AGAINST natural evolution. The creation of the universe "ex nihilo" ("out of nothing") means that it began to exist ... ie:
1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause
2) The universe began to exist
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause
Since nothing can cause itself to exist, the cause for the universe cannot be its own cause. If the big bang theory is correct, the cause for the universe is outside of the universe, ie it is utterly apart from and above anything contained here.

At this point, someone will say "Aha! But what about God then? If everything has a cause, what caused God?" This question misunderstands the argument being made above. The argument is that "Whatever begins to exist has a cause". God did not begin to exist, and thus is not "caused" in the same way that the universe is. Note that this is not "special pleading" for God since we have excellent evidence (for philosophical and scientific reasons) that the universe began to exist and no reason to require that God began to exist.

I think the bible is just a fiction novel created to make people to have faith in the afterlife.... theres no way half of it is even true...

While what you think is important, please ask yourself: What are my reasons for thinking that it is "just a fiction novel"? You've mentioned the virgin Mary. Many people exclude the possibility of miracles, and therefore automatically conclude that any mention of a miracle must be false. That's poor reasoning, and I'd suggest that if it can be demonstrated that it's reasonable to conclude that God exists, than there is no reason to conclude that miracles couldn't occur (which are after all only God acting in the world He created).

Let me just say that I grew up as an atheist, and only when I took a serious look at religion did I conclude (after many months of careful study and experience) that Christianity is true. It was not an easy realization; rather humbling to have to admit that I was wrong for most of my life! But I'm not the only one who's been convinced recently ... Anthony Flew, who was for years a well known champion of atheism, was forced to change his mind and admit that he now believes in a God (not necessarily the Christian God of course) and that he now believes in God more or less based on scientific evidence. See the story here:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=315976

This isn't just a trivial subject like what clothes or music people prefer. Your choice of worldview effects your entire life, and thus it's worth more than just a cursory look

[julie124]

no matter what my mind well never be changed, I grew up in the church, my dad was a minster... I always thought that it was stupid and I couldn't believe how gulable people were to believe in such crap.. Now I just think my own thoughts and accept that people are going to think and believe what they want. and its ok

[CPT Worm]

I believe that God made all of creation actively.

However, it does not say that Adam and Eve are the only human beings. (Adam actually had a "wife" before Eve, but she was cast out of Eden)

Then God said in Genesis, "26. Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
(He's obviously talking to his servants, angels.)
---
Of course, I believe that God put a lot of time into the Earth, so "days" can easily take millions of years.

After all, God is huge. Even if He was dependent on time, I'm sure that his day is extremely long. But it could be very true that God is independent of time and space.

[emmzee]

no matter what my mind well never be changed, I grew up in the church, my dad was a minster... I always thought that it was stupid and I couldn't believe how gulable people were to believe in such crap.. Now I just think my own thoughts and accept that people are going to think and believe what they want. and its ok

I respect your opinions, but this idea of "people are going to think and believe what they want" kinda bothers me. There's no doubt that people will have different opinions on issues. But the fact is that there is such a thing as truth, and there is such a thing as falsehood. Either the president of the USA is George Bush, or not. (You might prefer that he weren't president, but that doesn't change the fact that he currently is.) Either Jesus was and is God, or he was not. There's no inbetween. There is no way to say with 100% certainty either way, so we all must make a decision based on an "inference to the best explanation", ie after carefully reviewing all the evidence, what is the most reasonable choice.

Saying that a person's mind will never be changed, no matter what, doesn't seem like a reasonable position to take, does it? I mean, if I always thought 'x', and after studying the issue for awhile, it became clear that instead 'y' is true, would I keep on thinking 'x'? That'd just be hypocritical. So really I think the suggestion being made is that, based on what you know now, you are extremely doubtful there would be anything that would change your mind. I can understand that. Sure, there are a lot of Christians who are jerks (roughly proportional to the rest of the population heh). But that shouldn't be the basis for rejecting the religion.

Question: Should whether someone is a Christian be based on whether Christianity is true, or based only on personal experiences?

[Dosser]

Sure there can be half-truths: I am sure Jesus existed, and I am sure he was a great guy, but I don't think he had any sort of powers.

And sure people are entitled to their opinions: it's really not worth changing people's minds as long as they keep it to themselves most of the time.

[emmzee]

Sure there can be half-truths: I am sure Jesus existed, and I am sure he was a great guy, but I don't think he had any sort of powers.

I agree that there can be "half-truths", but there are some statements which cannot be "kinda true". Jesus cannot be "kinda God but not really". He either is or isn't.

On a slightly different tact, C.S Lewis famously said that Jesus was either God, a liar, or a lunatic. When you look at what he said about himself, if he was not God, he must've either been lying to everyone, or a real nutjob. (Or his later disciples made stuff up about him, but when study the reliablity of the New Testament documents will reveal that there are more and better copies of those manuscripts than for any other document from that time period.)

And sure people are entitled to their opinions: it's really not worth changing people's minds as long as they keep it to themselves most of the time.

That's true for many things. For example, many people prefer Pepsi, but I like Coke. So what? No one cares. But for things that really matter, we have a moral responsibility to change other's opinions if we feel that they are wrong. I'll never try to force anyone to change their opinions. But nor will I, if I see people with beliefs that I think are both wrong and meaningful (in a way that is infinitely greater than choice of cola) I won't just sit back and say "Oh well, they have their own beliefs." If someone smokes two packs of cigarettes per day because they don't believe there are any health risks, shouldn't we step in and try to stop them?

[The_Sinister_Mastermind]

Ok so I didn’t have time to read all that right now though I will later. I'd just like to point out to GameMaster that science does NOT prove we evolved from monkeys nor has science ever tried to prove that. What science does prove is we evolved from the same ancestor as apes did.

[CPT Worm]

We shouldn't teach evolution in our schools because it's not an empirical science.

[Wally]

just so you know Mastermind, australia is a christian Country . They are trying to change the lines of the national anathem to include the word god.. What morons..

I know most of you are religious I believe Jesus and god as people who did exist at one point like dosser pointed out. They were killed on those days as well i would say.

I believe in science and i also believe we humans come from the ape family and we evolved from them by Resistance ( I think) (Meaning something wasnt right so it was upgraded) (I.e) Giraffes used to have short necks but they couldnt reach the trees so the new gene was passed from generation to generation until eventually the necks got longer and now they can reach the trees.

The big bang theory sounds better than God making earth as space helmets were not invented back in that time and he would have suffercated .

How the hell was the earth made? Dunno. How was space made even.......

[emmzee]

I know most of you are religious I believe Jesus and god as people who did exist at one point like dosser pointed out. They were killed on those days as well i would say.

There are few historians who would dispute that Jesus existed. Also, there's little doubt that He died. The question is, what happened afterwards? Either he was merely a man and stayed dead as we'd all expect. Or something else happened that changed everything ... I had always assumed the former, without checking it out for myself ...

The big bang theory sounds better than God making earth ... How the hell was the earth made? Dunno. How was space made even.......

As per my post above, the big bang theory clearly implies that God exists, since if the universe began to exist, something must have caused it to exist. This is exactly why many scientists are dislike, and create elaborate theories to avoid, the big bang theory ... not for any scientific reason, but because they want to remain atheists!

I believe in science and i also believe we humans come from the ape family and we evolved from them by Resistance ( I think) (Meaning something wasnt right so it was upgraded) (I.e) Giraffes used to have short necks but they couldnt reach the trees so the new gene was passed from generation to generation until eventually the necks got longer and now they can reach the trees.

I also believe in science (who could say they don't "believe" in science?) but do not believe in macro-evolution. Certainly, it's possible that giraffes could have, over long periods of time, come to have long necks (only due to the fact that ones with longer necks were more likely to survive than ones with shorter necks). However, this is en entirely different thing than saying that somehow a bunch of chemicals randomly came together to produce life. ?!?! A thoughtful book which is a good read on these subjects:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/031024 ... 27-1263267
(Not an affiliate link)

[GameMaster.EXE]

just so you know Mastermind, australia is a christian Country . They are trying to change the lines of the national anathem to include the word god.. What morons..

its the exact opposite here in the US. We're christians too, but some "morons" (as you put it) want to remove the lines "under god" from the pledge of allegiance. I dunno why, they have something against christ or something.

[Kazer0]

I stopped reading when I read "God" and Intelligent design in the same sentance, then I laughted at anyone who would quote the onion.

First off, Intelligent design doesnt believe in "God" per se, but rather a creator. From there, it branches from anything from a diety to aliens.

Secon off, anyone who tries to say the big band theory in any way, has to think. Where did that one, small, insignificant particle that exploded to create the universe, come from? God perhaps?

Really, it IS possible that many 'scientific' theory's are correct, but God still exists. In day 1, God created the earth. Could it be that God used 'The Big Bang' to create the universe and Earth? Day (I forget which day, im a bad Christian) God created Man. Who says the building of a man is not evolution? When you build something, you start small and build up. And as well, God is timeless. The 7 days dont have to be literal days. They could be 70 dyas, 700 days, 7000 years, etc.

Now im not saying I believe in either of those three theorys, but I do respect other possibilities and beliefs. However, as a Christian, all I can do is believe that there is a God, and Jesus was our saviour, and I wont stop believing that anytime soon.