Thought-provoking! A unified North American state?

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Thought-provoking! A unified North American state?

Post by CPT Worm » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:58 pm

Okay, since you may or may not know, I am a political science major specializing in Comparative Politics. So, I'm taking a class on North American politics. And I wanted to discuss how people would react to a unified North American state, similar to the European Union. I'm open to any and all opinions, and believe many people can bring a unique perspective to this conversation. Well, except Australia and New Zealand. lol grab a snickers

Nah, I'm just kidding. However, since you're not in North American nor have you experienced unification, I don't know if this topic will interest you. But if it does, feel free to chime in. =)

Anyway, do you believe that it could be done? Or is it even necessary?

I believe, at a certain point, it may prove necessary. There are a few problems that we may encounter however.
First, let's assume that the first step would be to unify Canada and the United States. Similar language (English, except for Quebec, but whatever), somewhat similar origins ([British] colonies), similar constitutions, a very interconnected economy, and a somewhat similar culture. Of course, there are some differences in our cultures, but I feel that wouldn't be as big as a problem as the ones by problems. Republics (i.e. Congress + President) and Representational Democracies (i.e. Parliament/Prime Minister + the Queen) are very different systems.

There are more issues we can get into, but I just want to get the ball rolling.
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Post by emmzee » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:37 pm

It's an interesting idea that I vaguely recall discussing back in my economics class, but since you're clearly knowledgeable on the matter, could you describe exactly what changes would result from unification? I admit I'm not too familiar with the European Union ... for example, in that union, what did the before and after pictures look like (other than the common Euro currency)?
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Post by CPT Worm » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:11 pm

Well, the biggest thing that would happen is a shift in sovereignty. I hardly doubt that either Canada or the US would succumb to a super-federal parliament. A unified nation-state would have to incorporate the constitutions of both countries. The only problem, at least in the United States, is that in order for a constitutional amendment to pass, both house would have to pass the reform with 70% majority, and 38 states would have to ratify it.
So, to compensate, the Canadian and American governments would merge into the federal system, leaving the "North American Union" or whatever you want to call it, which would be comprised of 61 provinces (since the American usage of "state" is poorly used). This would be a much more fully integrated system.

However, if we adopted a EU-style system, a super-national parliament would decree over the two nations (and others if they later join). This parliament would dictate economic laws (more so than NAFTA and CAFTA), environmental laws, and essentially anything else requiring legislation. Basically, any law that the EU parliament passes, every country in the Union has to enforce.
The only problem with this in a North American Union, is that many American states value "state's rights" and a super-national parliament superseding the Congress and the President would not fly. I'm not entirely sure if provinces are allotted this same right, though.
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Post by Final Chance » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:40 pm

Canada could simply absorb the United States.

Washington, Oregon, Nevada, and California would be part of British Columbia.

Idaho, Utah, and Arizona would be part of Alberta.

Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico would be part of Saskatchewan.

North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas would be part of Manitoba.

Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, and Delaware would be part of New Brunswick.

Alaska would be part of the Yukon.

Hawaii would be the 4th territory.

All other states would be part of Ontario.

United States Law would vanish as all the Americans instantly become Canadians, and Canadian Law would be in place.

Canada would absorb the US debt, about $800 billion + $9 trillion would equal almost $9.8 Trillion.

The US Dollar would be evenly matched with the Canadian dollar (i.e. $1 USD = $1 CAD). It's pretty fair since CAD was higher once before back in the early 70s, and could easily do it again if circumstances allowed. Stores would take both dollars equally, over time the US dollars would be burned and US coins would be melted, and after a while it would be all Canadian money.

And the greatest benefit of this, is that it would allow Quebec to separate without too much trouble. :D

Also it would allow Stephen Harper to get a massive majority government.

As well, since the Canadian Army was a laughingstock for many years, if this were to happen, the Canadian Army would become one heck of a fighting machine.

Then, many years later, the whole world would be Canada (all in peaceful Canadian style with good deals) except for Quebec! Only 2 countries in the whole world, Canada and Quebec! :laugh:

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Post by Dogbreath » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:13 pm

I can't really see this happening with both governments still intact at the time. I mean, a lot could be done for unifying economic laws and government agencies (CIA, FBI, ATF, etc.), but to make one country would mean that both the American states and Canadian provinces would have to dissolve their respective federal governments, and form an entirely new country with a new constitution. Any other solution would involve one of the countries being engulfed by the other, or turn the situation into a bueracratic nightmare, with two seperate governments having their laws all mashed together.

Only problem is, think of the countless billions it'd cost to condense all the files, agencies, departments, services, etc. etc. etc... from two big countries into one! It's mind boggling.

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Post by Unknown_K » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:20 pm

I don't see the US wanting Canada or Mexico, the canadians have too many personal rights they don't want to loose (national healthcare) and the Mexicans are convenient to exploit economically.

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Re: Thought-provoking! A unified North American state?

Post by fauvem » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:04 pm

Worm o' Love wrote:grab a snickers
mmm... snickers. *Starts eating one*

Anyway, the feasibility of the task is actually quite low, as the previously mentioned problems propel the cost of undertaking it well outside the range of a profit & the implications to the world economy & politics are impossible to predict.
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Post by emmzee » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:11 pm

What would the potential benefits of such a union be? There don't seem to be enough (at least that I can think of off the top of my head) to make such a union worthwhile to implement and maintain.
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Post by Kazer0 » Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:39 pm

Id fear my saftey if there was a US-Canada merge. Canada would go from a world neutral country to a world evil country. Note, I say evil because in a recent poll the US was in fact placed as such.

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Post by Larry Laffer » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:04 am

And it's time for the actual EU-member-country resident to barge in:

I don't actually think this could happen, since there are some differences between USA+Canada and the whole bunch of European countries...

1) EU was actually created with 2 purposes
- recovering after the damages WW1 and WW2 caused
- Uniting (some of) the 47 European countries

And to be honest, I don't think any of these apply to USA/Canada

2) EU has strict standards(ok, USA/CA. have also, but the following don't actually apply) and is known for the actual policy "Your population ain't happy enough or just plainly doesn't live up to our standards? then SCRAM!"

and, just like some other of you said... what would be the actual benefit of creating a NA union?
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Post by CPT Worm » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:11 am

Well, in joining an NAU, it would begin to bring more economy stability to the region. I'm just talking about Canada and US as a starting point, but eventually Mexico, the Caribbean, and Central America will want to join. This will provide new opportunities, and give these countries something to shoot for.

Kazer0, I'm pretty sure that poll is highly racist. We're not evil. Our government has just made some bad decisions lately. For instance, most of the country is against the war in Iraq.
Even so, with Canadian involvement, especially in an EU style system, that would curb the US' power to fight.

Listen, our military is strong. But it's not the Cold War anymore. Once we get done with Iraq, we need to do something about Darfur (with UN backing), then come back home and fix some of the shit in our country.

This might be hard to believe, but one day America will not be the world's sole superpower. Some say China will domineer. Eh, maybe, but they have a very long while to go.
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Post by Kazer0 » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:03 pm

Worm o' Love wrote:Well, in joining an NAU, it would begin to bring more economy stability to the region. I'm just talking about Canada and US as a starting point, but eventually Mexico, the Caribbean, and Central America will want to join. This will provide new opportunities, and give these countries something to shoot for.

Kazer0, I'm pretty sure that poll is highly racist. We're not evil. Our government has just made some bad decisions lately. For instance, most of the country is against the war in Iraq.
Even so, with Canadian involvement, especially in an EU style system, that would curb the US' power to fight.

Listen, our military is strong. But it's not the Cold War anymore. Once we get done with Iraq, we need to do something about Darfur (with UN backing), then come back home and fix some of the shit in our country.

This might be hard to believe, but one day America will not be the world's sole superpower. Some say China will domineer. Eh, maybe, but they have a very long while to go.
Weither the poll was "racist" or not is irrelivant. Its how other countries see the US is what matters, and thats what leads to terrorism, hence why I would fear for my saftey.

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Post by CPT Worm » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:23 pm

I question the validity of a poll that asks if the United States was "evil."

Listen, you can't let fear of terrorism rule your life. Being a Canadian will not keep you safe. You are part of the Western world. Therefore, the extremists view YOU as evil.
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Post by Kazer0 » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:07 pm

Worm o' Love wrote:I question the validity of a poll that asks if the United States was "evil."

Listen, you can't let fear of terrorism rule your life. Being a Canadian will not keep you safe. You are part of the Western world. Therefore, the extremists view YOU as evil.
Actually the questions were along the lines of "What country is the biggest threat to world peace?", and "What country causes the most fear in the world?".

Canada has a generally neutral stance globally. Yes, we are part of the western world, but generally the hate is towards americans rather than westerners.

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Post by CPT Worm » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:22 pm

Britain? Spain?

The only reason why Americans are the image for the West is because we're the only remaining superpower.

I'm not saying that the union between our countries will happen anytime soon, but maybe when we've start losing our influence on the world.

Also, does the poll explain why the world thinks this?
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Post by Final Chance » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:55 pm

I guess they're still pissed off with the US for invading Iraq.

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Post by CPT Worm » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:11 am

But, if you assume that, sure you'll realize that most of the country and the troops are constantly seeking to pull out from Iraq? The president will not have much luck keeping this war continuing.

As soon as the New Iraq Army is ready to protect the country, we should be able to leave.
I think we should have kept our attention on Afghanistan, but the post 9-11 world has seen a drastic change on our government.
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