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Post by Amro »

I wanna know why do you think pople dismiss others religions as fast as this [snaps fingers]?
Probably because they think their religion is right and all others are wrong. However, I've done research on other religions and I'm still learning more (though, to be honest, I'm about as sure as can be I won't be converting, but it has nothing to do with other religions being "wrong", rather I just believe very strongly in my religion). It's good to know at least the principal tenets of each religion.
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Post by emmzee »

Larry Laffer wrote:BOT: I wanna know why do you think pople dismiss others religions as fast as this [snaps fingers]?
Not everyone does. I was raised in a decidedly non-religious household. Later I realized that <i>if</i> one of these religions was correct, then it would have grave implications for my life. So I took the time to investigate various faiths, and came to the conclusion that one was true and the others are not.
Amro wrote:it has nothing to do with other religions being "wrong", rather I just believe very strongly in my religion
Just want to note that, necessarily, not all religions are true since they teach contradictory things. That doesn't mean I think that religions other than Christianity are totally and utterly wrong about every point; certainly there is overlap between faiths on many things, and I value truth wherever it is found. But, for example, Christianity and Islam cannot both be true, since one teaches that Jesus is God and the other teaches that he was just a man. These are contradictory ideas; one may be true, or they both may be false, but both cannot be true. So one or both of them are "wrong".

It's not politically correct to say that we think other religions are "wrong". But atheists and agnostics think all religions are wrong in the same way that religious people think <i>other</i> faiths are wrong. Buddhists think Christians are wrong; if they didn't they wouldn't be Buddhists, they'd be Christians ... and vice versa.

Sorry to belabor this point, I just wanted to make this clear, because I hear often hear the view that "all religions are true tralalala" which is incorrect. (And note too Amro that I'm certainly not trying to say you think all religions can be true or something like that! So please don't misunderstand or take offense at this post.)
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Post by Larry Laffer »

Amro wrote:
I wanna know why do you think pople dismiss others religions as fast as this [snaps fingers]?
(...)However, I've done research on other religions and I'm still learning more(...)
That's a good thing about being an atheist: You can "observe" other religions without the implications that would cause if a certain religion was right
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Post by emmzee »

Larry Laffer wrote:That's a good thing about being an atheist: You can "observe" other religions without the implications that would cause if a certain religion was right
By declaring yourself and atheist, you seem to be suggesting that you lack bias when considering religions. Your language suggests that you want to "observe" religions without considering the implications if one is true. Can you see that this viewpoint is no better than someone who as you say snaps their fingers to dismiss other religions? If you approach & study religions without accepting the possibility that one may be true, then you are as closedminded and biased as those finger snapping religious folk. I mean, I'm Christian, but I still accept the possibility that I could be wrong, and it sounds like Amro takes the same viewpoint re his faith.

The point is that the implications if 'X' religion is true still remain whether you choose to consider them or not.
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Post by Larry Laffer »

ooooK... Let's say I'm still searching then... I'm not even sure WHAT to believe in....

Before saying anything else... tell me agnostic is someone that believes in a religion of his[her] own??
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Post by CPT Worm »

I'm thinking "atheist" implies that you believe that there is no God, whereas "agnostic" implies you don't care, but you're not opposed to the idea of God.
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Post by emmzee »

Basically, yeah. An agnostic is someone who doesn't say there IS a God, but doesn't say there ISN'T either. There's several types ... try to identify which one you are if you fall in this category :D

<b>Closed Agnosticism</b>: <i>"There's no way for anyone to know if God exists or not, or anything about God"</i>
I might suggest these two posts on my blog re this topic:
http://www.whyfaith.com/2006/11/01/knowing-god/
http://www.whyfaith.com/2006/07/09/it-i ... about-god/
IMHO, I don't think this is a reasonable position.

<b>Careless Agnosticism:</b> <i>"I don't care whether God exists or not; the matter is trivial to me"</i>
You might try <a href="http://www.skepticalchristian.com/questforgod.htm">The Quest for God (Why bother?)</a> at SkepticalChristian.com, or <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/ ... .html">Why the atheist must face death with despair</a>. This is, at least, an honest position, but to me seems tragic.

<b>Open Agnosticism:</b> <i>"I don't know if God exists or what God is like, but if God does exist, I want to find out"</i>
This is most reasonable position IMHO. But where to go from here? This seems more like a pitstop on a journey, rather than a destination ...
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Post by Amro »

Just want to note that, necessarily, not all religions are true since they teach contradictory things. That doesn't mean I think that religions other than Christianity are totally and utterly wrong about every point; certainly there is overlap between faiths on many things, and I value truth wherever it is found. But, for example, Christianity and Islam cannot both be true, since one teaches that Jesus is God and the other teaches that he was just a man. These are contradictory ideas; one may be true, or they both may be false, but both cannot be true. So one or both of them are "wrong".
You're absolutely correct- they can't both be right (or any two religions being right), even if they didn't have contradictory beliefs. What I meant was while I do explore other religions, it's out of curiosity rather than trying to find another religion. Also, when asked why I dismiss religion X or Y, I would be able to argue constructively. In the end, it comes down to what each person believes is true (it's called faith, after all), even though there may be one true religion (or not, but of course every believer believes there is :))
Open Agnosticism: "I don't know if God exists or what God is like, but if God does exist, I want to find out"
This is most reasonable position IMHO. But where to go from here? This seems more like a pitstop on a journey, rather than a destination ...
There are also agnostics that do believe in God, but not in one religion or another. It seems like a weird position if you ask me- if you believe in God you must put some credit to the monotheistic religions and you're going to have to pick one, otherwise you should be asking if all are wrong, why doesn't God send us more guidance?

As for atheism, I believe it's not a logical position. Dismissing the idea of God in the name of science is ridiculous IMO because all atheist theories are far from complete or flawless, thus scientifically untrue until actually proven. Not to mention that there are opposing scientific views (read my earlier posts).
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Post by Larry Laffer »

Amro wrote: There are also agnostics that do believe in God, but not in one religion or another. It seems like a weird position if you ask me- if you believe in God you must put some credit to the monotheistic religions and you're going to have to pick one, otherwise you should be asking if all are wrong, why doesn't God send us more guidance?
First of all I thing the Open agnosticism fits me best... So there is something that expresses my point of view and it's not atheism.

But tell me Amro(I may be dead-wrong on this one)... what if, hipoteticaly, I'd start believing in God, and make a "version" of my own? I mean something like starting my own cult!
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Post by emmzee »

Larry Laffer wrote:what if, hipoteticaly, I'd start believing in God, and make a "version" of my own? I mean something like starting my own cult!
I know this was addressed to Amro particularly, but I'd like to respond also.

The "starting your own cult" idea is an option of course, although we need to clarify that the purpose of a spiritual quest should be to find the truth about God, not just to make up a "god" that we happen to like. There's an expression that says "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinventio ... eel">Don't reinvent the wheel</a>", meaning, in this case, that a lot of people have spent a lot of time thinking about this issue over the last few thousand years, so it might be worthwhile to get their opinions before continuing. There's a chance that none of the religions in the world is right; but it might be better to see if those 2 billion Christians or those 1 billion Muslims or 900 million Hindus are on to something before trying to come up with something on your own.

This is I guess a reason I have a problem with certain faiths, like Buddhism. I mean, Buddha was just a guy who sat around and thought for awhile, and supposedly became enlightened. Why listen to him rather than any of the other philosophers who have done the same thing? That's one of the distinctions of Christianity; it's based on events, not just philosophizing.
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Post by Amro »

But tell me Amro(I may be dead-wrong on this one)... what if, hipoteticaly, I'd start believing in God, and make a "version" of my own? I mean something like starting my own cult!
You sure could, but you'd need a reason to believe in your own religion. How did you come to the conclusion that God exists if it had nothing to do with other faiths? Did God send you a message, or a vision, or something? You can't make anything up because you wouldn't believe yourself (unless you're lying on purpose for some personal gain, like your own zealous army :devil: or because you're just weird). You could gain followers and become famous =P but for no real purpose.

Take for example Elijah Mohammad. He claims he was sent by God to the United States to put the black man back in a high status. Nevermind the fact that Islam (his religion) explicitly states that there wouldn't be any more prophets or messengers of any kind. Sadly, thousands believed in his racist version of Islam (again going against the basic beliefs of the faith). I met someone from his Nation of Islam, and wished never to meet any of them again (so damn racist! he looked like he would have murdered me if I wasn't a muslim). I hear they 'changed' their beliefs (no longer needed the anti-white people crap after the 90s) but I met the guy I mentioned earlier in early 2003.

NOI is based loosely on Islam however. But it'd be pretty hard to come up with a religion with nothing to do with any of the existing religions, be it Islam or Buddhism.
I mean, Buddha was just a guy who sat around and thought for awhile, and supposedly became enlightened
As a side note, I heard about speculation (by muslim scholars) about Buddha, saying there's a possibility he was a prophet (but it's both irrelevant and pure speculation).
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Post by GAMER »

Well, before...when i was talking about how i was "christian for lack of a better word" when i was younger...that was sort of like believing in God, but not in a religion. I think my stance at the time was fairly independant to all religions...So, not hard for me to grasp the concept. I think it's logical. Faith is personal...so...subscribing to a religion...mmm. Yeah. Trying to put thoughts into words and it isn't working too well. I'll revise next time i'm feeling more coherent. :)

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Post by emmzee »

GAMER, thanks for your post! It caused me to remember a post I'd started for my blog awhile back and never finished ... I was going to type it out here but it got too long so I posted it on my blog instead.

I think belief in a non-specific God is usually termed "theism". Or possibly "deism", as Anthony Flew now calls himself, a "deist", since he believes in a God of some sort, but not any particular one. (Anthony Flew was one of the world's most famous atheist philosophers ... until he recanted two years ago and now believes God exists, based largely on his review of scientific evidence.)

Oh, my post is here:
http://www.whyfaith.com/2006/11/11/what ... -theology/
It's about "natural theology", or in other words what we can know about God just by observation. 'course I take the implications a step further but I think it's merited :thumbsup:

Edit: FWIW, believing in God (even a particular God) doesn't mean being "religious" ... <a href="http://www.themeetinghouse.ca">this growing church</a> near me has kinda made "GOD HATES RELIGION" their motto :P
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Post by Larry Laffer »

emmzee wrote:This is I guess a reason I have a problem with certain faiths, like Buddhism. I mean, Buddha was just a guy who sat around and thought for awhile, and supposedly became enlightened. Why listen to him rather than any of the other philosophers who have done the same thing? That's one of the distinctions of Christianity; it's based on events, not just philosophizing.
I thought Buddhism was a way of life not a whole religion...
Amro wrote:unless you're lying on purpose for some personal gain, like your own zealous army or because you're just weird). You could gain followers and become famous =P but for no real purpose.
which reminds me of Bivolaru :D
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Post by NeonAmd64 »

I wonder why you are mixing things all togather..

If somone would like to understand christinity or like to know about a religion he must go to it's land and take the knowledge not by taking it from there and there.
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Post by CPT Worm »

God is everywhere. You don't need to go to a holy city to experience Him.
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Post by NeonAmd64 »

Mr. Worm wrote:God is everywhere. You don't need to go to a holy city to experience Him.
I wasn't talking about god. I was talking about a religion. I know that God is everywhere but we at least must know about how to believe in that God.
I think that there are rules for each religion to let you experince that God. am I wrong?
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Post by emmzee »

In terms of experiencing God, I wouldn't call them "rules" per se, more like "methods". But of course experiencing God is only one part of faith/religion. What a person believes, and how they choose to live their lives, are just as important, I'd say more important.
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Post by NeonAmd64 »

Thank you emmzee, you are right and I agree with your statement but I am just reminding people about main basic things that would be forgotten by time of talk. I hope people get it right. B)
. But of course experiencing God is only one part of faith/religion. What a person believes, and how they choose to live their lives, are just as important, I'd say more important.
Those words has a lot of replies but atleast I will say the following:

[Sometimes experiencing God is much important then anything else]
I will take [respect] as an example:
>Respecting God:
if there is a good respect between you and God then people will respect you the same as how was you respect God :) because people feel this repect in your social life[speaking, acting doing things and dealing with people]. People will like you more than what you expect. beside that your life will get much higher in everyfield you have.

But

>Respecting People:
The opposite is the same but respect will miss a lot of things so it will be much lower. I mean people will feel 10%, 20%, 50% or 0% of your respect even if you tried hard to let people respect you. Then, you will get in the rule of a chance. Maybe you will be respected or maybe not. I think GAMER would be a good helper because I think he knows math verywell.

People are not everywhere but God is everywhere. That's why experiencing God is important but it should in a correct way with the correct knowledge and wisdom.

Finaly, those are words of an opinion. it can be changed by depending on the reality.
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Post by cyb3r.god3 »

i hav now raduated from my old relgious school and are now free to be an atheist. im happy.
the way i see "god" as is earth and the universe surely this has o have some eaning to it.

now as there is 10 pges of religious discussion i propose we change the subject to: time travel, possible or not
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