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Ro@m
Hamachi Guardian
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 1510
Location: Croatia
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Dogbreath
Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3907
Location: In the back of a jacked-up Ford.
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 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:23 pm
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz#Criminal_trial
| Quote: | In the early afternoon of December 22, 1984, four young African-American men — Barry Allen, 19; Troy Canty, 19; James Ramseur, 18; and Darrell Cabey, 19 — boarded a downtown No. 2 express train on a stated mission to steal money from video arcade machines in Manhattan.
Goetz entered the same subway car at the 14th Street station and sat down near the four young men, who were then located at his right. According to Goetz's statement to police, approximately ten seconds later Troy Canty asked him, "How are you?" Goetz responded "I'm fine". According to Goetz, the four men gave signals to each other, and shortly thereafter Canty and Barry Allen rose from their seats and went over to the left of Goetz, blocking Goetz off from the other passengers in the car. Canty then calmly said to Goetz, "Give me five dollars." According to the young men's testimony, Canty was panhandling, although eyewitness testimony given at Goetz's criminal trial generally agreed that the four men were aggressive and threatening. Goetz told police that he thought from the smile on Canty's face that they wanted to "play with me," and he decided on a "pattern of fire" that he would use to shoot them. Goetz, pretending not to hear them, asked Canty, "What did you say?" Canty calmly repeated, "Give me five dollars." Goetz admitted to police that he "snapped" and that his intention at that point was to "murder them, to hurt them, to make them suffer as much as possible." At the criminal trial, Goetz's defense attorneys, Barry Slotnick and Mark Baker, claimed that this and other extreme statements by Goetz were the product of an overactive imagination.
After the second demand or request for money, Goetz rose from his seat, and from beneath his blue windbreaker fast-drew a .38 Special five-shot Smith & Wesson revolver and fired five shots with speed shooting. (Speed shooting is a very fast technique, primarily effective at close range, where the shooter initiates trigger pull prior to the sights being aligned on the target.) In media interviews, Goetz, who had prior firearms and target shooting experience, described how he discharged all five rounds in less than 1.6 seconds. (Some eyewitness testimony stated all shots were fired within one second.) The first hit Canty in the center of the chest; the second shot struck Allen in his back and came out his arm; the third shot hit the subway wall just in front of Cabey; the fourth shot hit Cabey in the left side, severing his spinal cord and rendering him paraplegic; the fifth shot went through Ramseur's arm and lodged itself in his left side. Goetz then immediately looked at the first two men to make sure they were "taken care of." Goetz then saw Cabey moving on the bench and confessed to approaching Cabey and saying, "You don't look too bad; here's another," and then attempted to shoot Cabey again in the stomach, with an empty gun. Cabey, who was briefly standing prior to the shooting, was sitting on the subway bench during all attempted shots. In his subsequent police statement, Goetz explained, "if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again." All four men survived, though Cabey was permanently paralyzed and suffered brain damage as a result of the bullet that severed his spine. |
He eventually went to jail for 8 months, because he didn't have a proper license for his gun. Brings some interesting questions to mind, though.
For example, I had a friend who was robbed. He gave them all his money because he didn't want to get hurt, but they broke his legs and beat him half to death anyway. Wouldn't it have been better if my friend had a gun and shot the two guys mugging him, than him being crippled for the rest of his life? Most Americans (including me) would say "yes", but Europeans would say "no." Why?
Just trying to incite controversy. 
(Plus, being able to fire 5 rounds in 1.6 seconds and disable/kill 4 assailants is pretty badass... makes you realize just how short most gunfights are. Not the 3 minute fighting scenes from the Matrix...) |
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dosraider
Moderator
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 5044
Location: ROTFLMAO in Belgium.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:54 pm
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| Dogbreath wrote: | | Wouldn't it have been better if my friend had a gun and shot the two guys mugging him, than him being crippled for the rest of his life? .... |
Sure.
And in the process of defending himself as a real marksman firing a shot that kills a 12 years old girl.
That would be really nice. Great job. Congrats.
Look at the facts Dogbreath, more guns = more killings and more violence.
Nothing can change that fact, nothing what you say.
BTW: That 12 year old killing thingy? Happend here for real. And how many victims are there in the US by such happenings? Yeah baby, let us all cary some heavy gear, fireworks, yay. |
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Dogbreath
Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3907
Location: In the back of a jacked-up Ford.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:56 pm
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| dosraider wrote: | | Dogbreath wrote: | | Wouldn't it have been better if my friend had a gun and shot the two guys mugging him, than him being crippled for the rest of his life? .... |
Sure.
And in the process of defending himself as a real marksman firing a shot that kills a 12 years old girl.
That would be really nice. Great job. Congrats.
Look at the facts Dogbreath, more guns = more killings and more violence.
Nothing can change that fact, nothing what you say.
BTW: That 12 year old killing thingy? Happend here for real. And how many victims are there in the US by such happenings? Yeah baby, let us all cary some heavy gear, fireworks, yay. |
There are some accidental deaths, admittedly. But it's pretty low (check the stats I linked to), and caused by poor training or stupidity. Compare that to the number of people who drown in uncovered swimming pools, or of drinking too much alcohol, or in car accidents, or from just not wearing a seat belt. Arguing that a useful tool should be banned because it can accidentally kill someone isn't a valid argument. Otherwise you'd have to get rid of all dogs - they kill and maim people, too! (link)
And gun bans don't stop the proliferation of guns, you yourself have shown how easy it is to buy a gun pretty much anywhere. It just stops the legal proliferation - meaning people who want to obey the law don't get the guns, but criminals do. Also, the U.S. is so large and filled with empty, easy to smuggle places that trying to illegalize all guns and put an end to smuggling is laughable. We can't keep drugs or illegal immigrants out of the country, how would we keep guns? We're not small and tightly policed - the social changes that'd be needed to effectively do this are staggering.
That doesn't mean I think everyone should be allowed to buy a gun. I'm in favor of more interviews, a certification from a psychologist, and mandatory training and safety preparation before anyone is allowed to own a gun, as well as strict penalties for anyone who leaves a gun in a place where a child could get it/it could be stolen.
But I think gun ownership is a pretty vital part of American culture. Hopefully is 40-50 years it'll no longer be necessary, but it is now.
Besides, to use an old argument, look at Switzerland. There *everyone* 18 and over owns a state issued rifle, but they have a pretty low crime rate overall. Nobody wants to break into a house if they know the owner is going to be waiting for them with a loaded rifle.
As a final argument, think about human psychology. If somebody is robbing you, you could tell them "there's a 80% chance the police will catch you and you'll be sentenced to 5 years of jail time a couple years from now" it's not really going to make them rethink their actions. If you tell them "there's a 100% that I'll shoot you if you rob me, a couple of seconds from now, and then I'll take my money back anyway" that's a pretty powerful motivator, no? |
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GAMER
Gaming Demi-god
Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 1259
Location: chasing chikeds in the snow!
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:57 pm
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I resent guns being labeled as "useful tools". Their only purpose is for harm.
The old argument of - "why not ban matches, dogs, etc" is rubbish, as these things have other uses. Guns kill. That's about all.
Also, if your friend pulled a gun on those men mugging him, do you think they would have left him alive? Do you think they wouldn't have guns themselves? If civilians have guns, criminals are so much more likely to have guns.
Owning a gun doesn't make you safer. If everyone owns a gun, everyone owns a gun. You're all on the same "playing field" as it were...It just causes more extreme violence than if everyone were using their fists. What makes you think that if you are being robbed the assailant won't have a gun and be better at using it? And if guns are less available, criminals have lower access. Yes they can still get them illegally, but the access would be lower. Kids doing petty street crime are less likely to have guns if they are illegal - due to cost, availability, etc. The kind of criminal the everyday civilian is likely to run into probably bought their gun or stole it from someone who did acquire it legally. A street thug on a train probably hasn't bought a semi off the black market.
 GAMER |
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dosraider
Moderator
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 5044
Location: ROTFLMAO in Belgium.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:13 pm
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| Dogbreath wrote: | | Besides, to use an old argument, look at Switzerland. There *everyone* 18 and over owns a state issued rifle, but they have a pretty low crime rate overall. Nobody wants to break into a house if they know the owner is going to be waiting for them with a loaded rifle. |
No. Those who own an army rifle had:
Screening (meaning: no idiots,drug addicts, known outlaws, whatever, they are extremely strict)
Elaborious weapons training (Ever been in service DB? I've been, ask our Worm what that means, first thing you learn: fool with your weap and you're a week in jail)
No loaded weapon in house. NEVER. Check your facts first please.
| Dogbreath wrote: | | As a final argument, think about human psychology. If somebody is robbing you, you could tell them "there's a 80% chance the police will catch you and you'll be sentenced to 5 years of jail time a couple years from now" it's not really going to make them rethink their actions. If you tell them "there's a 100% that I'll shoot you if you rob me, a couple of seconds from now, and then I'll take my money back anyway" that's a pretty powerful motivator, no? |
As a final argument, think about human psychology:
If I want to rob you, and I know you have a gun, I'll have one too, the fact you have one won't stop me, and as I had complete militairy weapon training you're dead meat mister. (Yes, when I was 18 mil service was obligatory here, did a full year occupation forces in Germany.)
You're dead, because you are armed and I want to rob you, simple as that.
[EDIT]
Had to stop, was disturbed, lolz! ME IS BACK NOW.
See DB, when you are armed and I want to rob you, you're in disadvantage.
I can wait, rob you and kill you whenever I choose, you can't be 24/24 ready for me.
I decide when, today, next week, doesn't matter, you gonna get extra holes in your body, not I.
And please, don't hide behind a door or a simple brick wall, those FAL and FALO we had did go straight through that. It ain't some stupid movie or idiotic series on telly where some fragile car door stops those FMJ bullets.
If you ain't armed and I kill you , life sentence, no chance for pardon.
If I want to rob you, and you ain't armed I will be more carefull, last thing I want is be charged murdering an unarmed person.
[EDIT²]
BTW, could we continue this discussion in Dutch or French, it ain't easy for me to discuss such matters in Anglaise. |
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Dogbreath
Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3907
Location: In the back of a jacked-up Ford.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:21 pm
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| dosraider wrote: |
No. Those who own an army rifle had:
Screening (meaning: no idiots,drug addicts, known outlaws, whatever, they are extremely strict)
Elaborious weapons training (Ever been in service DB? I've been, ask our Worm what that means, first thing you learn: fool with your weap and you're a week in jail)
No loaded weapon in house. NEVER. Check your facts first please. |
Er, I *did* check my facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
| Quote: | | The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (German for "recruit school"), the initial boot camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). Each such individual keeps his army-issued personal weapon (the Sig 550 5.56x45 mm assault rifle for enlisted personnel, the SIG 510 battle rifle and/or the SIG-Sauer P220 9 mm semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home with a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm), which is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use takes place.[1] |
Not loaded all the time (only an idiot or someone who hates their kids would do that) but very capable of being loaded in a couple of seconds, which is what I meant. "Loaded by the time the guy enters the house." An issue of semantics, I guess.
Otherwise their laws are fairly like America's, or a bit more liberal. In the US, if you're transporting a firearm (unless you have a concealed handgun permit which is *VERY^ hard to get) you have to keep it separate from ammo and not brandished - Switzerland you can't carry the ammo on you if you're carrying the gun. They seem to be a lot easier on license requirements for recreational shooting there than here. A bit more strict with ammunition control. *shrug*
I've never been in the armed forces, though I stand a decent chance of joining the US Air Force this fall. I'm currently in the application stage - interviews with my liaison officer, physicals, eye exams, etc. 40-60 chance of me joining. US armed forces are all professional, so it's more of a career than something everyone does. I would like to do the whole 5 year tour of duty, but it's a fairly large commitment to make.
I have been hunting on occasion (just to freeze my ass off in a tree, not to kill anything. Another way in which Americans are fucking crazy, eh?) so I took a 5-day mandatory firearms class from the DNR. My Grandfather was a US Army Sargent in Europe 1941-1948, so he has quite a collection of firearms, including a German p-38. I've probably fired several hundred rounds with that, as well as a 12-gauge shotgun, my Hungarian FEG, a 30-06 rifle (made in 1917, wood stock and everything), a 9 mm high caliber hunting rifle (kicked almost as hard as the 12 gauge, monstrously long hollow-point ammo), a 9mm 17 shot police issue Glock, a .357 magnum revolver (7 shot... a nasty surprise?), various Russian handguns and rifles, and quite the assortment of .22s and bb-guns. I've shot at target ranges, and at the side of my grandpa's (now unused) barn.
So no, I don't have combat training, but I grew up around guns and am a fair marksman, as well as knowing how to dissemble/reassemble and clean most firearms. Obviously, in case of a DGF civil war, you and Worm would have the upper hand, but I wouldn't fare *too* badly.
I think the main problem is you think in the U.S. they pass out guns at the insane asylum. Almost all states have very rigid laws governing firearms (comparable to those used to judge whether someone is eligible for military service), and more and more states have mandatory safety training. Plus, when you see a gun you don't suddenly go insane Rambo-style, grab it, and start pointing it in people's face and shooting. You're used to it being there...
Cases like school shootings and such make the news because they're *rare*, only happen once every couple of years. If that was everyday life here, it wouldn't get talked about so much.
| Quote: |
As a final argument, think about human psychology:
If I want to rob you, and I know you have a gun, I'll have one too, the fact you have one won't stop me, and as I had complete militairy weapon training you're dead meat mister. (Yes, when I was 18 mil service was obligatory here, did a full year occupation forces in Germany.)
Hoe
You're dead, because you are armed and I want to rob you, simple as that.
[EDIT]
Had to stop, was disturbed, lolz! ME IS BACK NOW.
See DB, when you are armed and I want to rob you, you're in disadvantage.
I can wait, rob you and kill you whenever I choose, you can't be 24/24 ready for me.
I decide when, today, next week, doesn't matter, you gonna get extra holes in your body, not I.
And please, don't hide behind a door or a simple brick wall, those FAL and FALO we had did go straight through that. It ain't some stupid movie or idiotic series on telly where some fragile car door stops those FMJ bullets.
If you ain't armed and I kill you , life sentence, no chance for pardon.
If I want to rob you, and you ain't armed I will be more carefull, last thing I want is be charged murdering an unarmed person. |
I'll watch my back next time I'm in Belgium! O_o
I'd argue that the people who are fit for military service and/or are intelligent enough to get extensive gun training aren't going to choose a life of petty crime - they'll join the Mafia or get a job as a body guard or something. Have you ever seen a "gansta" try to shoot? They don't even hold the gun upright! That's why in r/l the cops always win the shootouts.
This is getting a bit silly, though. I think it pretty much goes: In America, for some weird reason, people grow up around guns, like guns, and want to have guns. In Europe (mostly) they don't. Different cultural values?
I can't do anything about it either way. But I kind of like it. 
Anyway, I don't feel like debating anymore (especially not while drinking), so if you want to call it quits, I will too.
| Quote: | [EDIT²]
BTW, could we continue this discussion in Dutch or French, it ain't easy for me to discuss such matters in Anglaise. |
I don't speak either language, but I'll be happy to use Babelfish! 
Maintenant j'écris dans un dosraider de langue peux comprendre ! Ainsi, ces Français sanglants... peut-être ils devraient inventer une guillotine que vous pouvez tirer hors d'un pistolet ? Ils iraient chercher probablement celui, mais il serait difficile de concevoir. La force le font aussi bien verser le vin acide et servir le fromage sentant gâté, ainsi ils peuvent tirer dans le confort ! |
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dosraider
Moderator
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 5044
Location: ROTFLMAO in Belgium.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:21 am
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| Dogbreath wrote: | Er, I *did* check my facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
| Quote: | | The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (German for "recruit school"), the initial boot camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). Each such individual keeps his army-issued personal weapon (the Sig 550 5.56x45 mm assault rifle for enlisted personnel, the SIG 510 battle rifle and/or the SIG-Sauer P220 9 mm semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home with a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm), which is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use takes place.[1] |
Not loaded all the time (only an idiot or someone who hates their kids would do that) but very capable of being loaded in a couple of seconds, which is what I meant. "Loaded by the time the guy enters the house." An issue of semantics, I guess. |
A sealed gun can be loaded in seconds? In your dreams. You'll need to dissassemble it, take all the grease away, clean it up, oil it, reassemble it.
SECONDS? Those guns are not 'ready to fire', far from even.
If they want to keep their gun after being in service it's returned fist to the factory and the automatic function is disabled.
And let's face it, Swiss are not as nuts as Americans.
| Quote: | | usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (German for "recruit school"), the initial boot camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). |
Also far far from every house as you wrote.
Oh you shot a couple of hundred rounds did you? Must been thousands whilst we were in training, standing, kneeling, laying, crowling, 25, 50, 100, 200 meters. And some more stuffies I've forgot. Ammo enough in the army, lolz.
| Dogbreath wrote: | | Maintenant j'écris dans un dosraider de langue peux comprendre ! Ainsi, ces Français sanglants... peut-être ils devraient inventer une guillotine que vous pouvez tirer hors d'un pistolet ? Ils iraient chercher probablement celui, mais il serait difficile de concevoir. La force le font aussi bien verser le vin acide et servir le fromage sentant gâté, ainsi ils peuvent tirer dans le confort ! |
Never , but really never do that again.
They can sue you for such things, this ain't French, this is ... something, but not French.
Maybe we can stop here by saying that we have different point of views on the matter?
And we could blame GAMER of course.
Woman !!!! |
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Ro@m
Hamachi Guardian
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 1510
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:44 am
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| Quote: | Sie zogen durch das wilde Kurdistan,
zwei, die dem Tod schon oft ins Auge sah'n.
Sie ritten Seite an Seite, waren Freunde für's Leben.
Hadschi hieß der kleine Mann, sein Herr war Kara Ben Nemsi.
Sein Turban, der war viel zu groß für ihn,
sein Pferd sah aus, als könnte es kaum noch geh'n.
Doch wenn er kämpfte, ist allen schnell das Lachen vergangen.
Denn er war ein Mann, ein Mann, ein Mann!
Hahaha, Hadschi Halef Omar,
Hahaha, Hadschi Halef Omar Ben
Hadschi Hadschi Abul Abbas Ibn Hadschi Dawud al Gossarah. |
Totaly random lyric....
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dosraider
Moderator
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 5044
Location: ROTFLMAO in Belgium.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:59 am
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Whilst we're on it, a special for our MacWallaby:
| Quote: |
Hey jim
Jim
Just a minute joh
I want to ask you something
I want you to spell something for me jim
Can you do that
Sure john
But I want you to spell for me new york
John why are you asking me to do that
I just want you to spell new york jim
But alright I gonna go in man
N-E-W-Y-O-R-K
That’s new york man
No jim you have made a mistake jim
I’m gonna teach you the right way
And the proper way
To spell new york
Well, go ahead john
A knife, a fork, a bottle and a coke
That’s the way we spell new york jim
Yeahyeah
You see I’m the dynomite
So all you got to do is hold me tight
Because I’m out of sight you know
‘cause I’m a dynomite
whatever the time I walk in the rain
man oh man I feel a pain
I feel a burning pain keep on burning in my bloody brain
I’ve got cocaine
running around in my brain
I’ve got cocaine
running around in my brain
I wanna meet my soulbrotha and my soulsister
I want you to hold me tight because I’m a dynomite
I’ve got cocaine
running around in my brain
no matter the way I treat my guest
you see they always love my kitchen best
‘cause I’ve cocaine
running around in my brain
cocaine
running around in my brain
yeah
hey jim , jim
where is jim man
jim I want you to spell me something
I want you to spell for me New York jim
Come on jim I want you to spell New York
A knife, a fork, a bottle and a coke
That’s the way we spell new york
Right on how exciting man right on
“huh”
right on
yeah
right on |
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Dogbreath
Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3907
Location: In the back of a jacked-up Ford.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:39 pm
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| dosraider wrote: |
A sealed gun can be loaded in seconds? In your dreams. You'll need to dissassemble it, take all the grease away, clean it up, oil it, reassemble it.
SECONDS? Those guns are not 'ready to fire', far from even.
If they want to keep their gun after being in service it's returned fist to the factory and the automatic function is disabled.
And let's face it, Swiss are not as nuts as Americans. |
Reread the quote (and the article), it's the boxes of ammo that are sealed... the guns are fully functional, and used routinely for target practice at ranges.
| Quote: | Never , but really never do that again.
They can sue you for such things, this ain't French, this is ... something, but not French. |
Now you know how we feel!
Actually, there are so many people in this world who speak English poorly that the language has kind of adapted. For example, there are 7,000(!) colloquial "Spanglish" words in use, and quite a few taken from other languages too.
I can understand someone speaking broken English than most people can understand me speaking broken Spanish/French/German/whatever.
| Quote: | Maybe we can stop here by saying that we have different point of views on the matter?
And we could blame GAMER of course.
Woman !!!! |
Women! Of course! What do you think drives American men to buy guns in the first place? To keep their women from out arming them! |
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GAMER
Gaming Demi-god
Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 1259
Location: chasing chikeds in the snow!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:43 pm
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Have i mentioned recently how much more awesome i am than you guys?? 
GAMER |
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Larry Laffer
Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 3390
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:44 am
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| No, please do, as long as you exclude me! |
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dosraider
Moderator
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 5044
Location: ROTFLMAO in Belgium.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:23 am
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| GAMER wrote: | | Have i mentioned recently how much more awesome i am than you guys?? |
Hmmmmm, maybe I should dig for that mohawk pic of you, still must be posted somewhere here ......
[Edit]
Knew GAMER's mohawk was still around somewhere:
Yeah, you're looking really awesome.
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GAMER
Gaming Demi-god
Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 1259
Location: chasing chikeds in the snow!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:55 am
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I was way awesome then and i'm way awesome now.
Have you ever seen a better mohawk on a girl?
Plus, my awesome-ness stems from more than my incredible good looks.
GAMER
n.b. i'm being facetious, for all you people that will be all - myeh myeh GAMER's so up herself... |
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