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radray11
Member
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 47
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 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:43 pm
Post subject: Religious, or religion... that's the question |
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I am not 'religious', because that would mean that I have every single religion "going on", and serve multiple gods.... I am but a Christian, doing God's work. I serve the One God who created the heavens and the earth, the Alpha and Omega.
Here's the question: Are you religious?
And, here's some insight for all Christians and non-Christians; even antichristians:
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Dopefish
Way too much free time
Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 371
Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:36 pm
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I'm a devout athiest.
I feel that all religions with the exeption of the ones void of dieties can be disproved with logic and science. |
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Venator
Newbie
Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:21 pm
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Does logic and science have 100% of all knowledge that exists anywhere and everywhere?
Come on now, it's like a goldfish in a fish tank claiming that there's nothing outside the fish tank. |
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Dopefish
Way too much free time
Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 371
Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:34 pm
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No, but neither does religion. Just because some folks think the earth is on the back of a turtle doesn't make it true, it's just a simple myth people make up to explain things they don't know.
That's a fairly dumb simile since the goldfish could easily determine that there is existance outside of the tank if it wasn't for the fact that their attention span only lasts 3 seconds. The main argument for their being a god seems to be "you don't need proof, just faith" but that's a silly argument because you might as well say "I am Zorkar, Emperor of Mars and Enslaver of Venusian Women" and when someone questions you, just yell at them for not having faith.
There's tons of scientific evidence that disproves any religion involving gods. I can kind of understand people who take the bible metaphorically and ignore the crazy things is says (like killing anyone who works on Sundays). What I don't get are fundamentalists who believe everything in the bible is literal truth, it contradicts itself and has too many inacuracies for that to be true. |
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Hiroshi
Expert
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 137
Location: Dis Pit
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:15 am
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| Venator wrote: | | Does logic and science have 100% of all knowledge that exists anywhere and everywhere? |
Yes, whether you like it or not.
I believe that all religions initially began as philosophies and guidelines for living a healthy life. However, since many people back then were so lost in their lives (still are these days) they took it way too seriously thus the initial concept has been lost in time. To me a lot of the stuff in the bible really did start out as philosophy and guidelines with plenty of metaphors and stories to give light to the subject, like pictures in a science textbook. This was in the old testament but as soon as the new testament rolled around it pretty much reflected the change of the times, people got desperate. Contradiction was quite abundant.
This is why I only look into the teachings of taoism and zen buddhism. Not much of gods involved, just fleshed out philosophy and interesting ways to look at life. Also, I don't believe in labeling myself based on a belief. I'm a human being much like everyone else. |
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emmzee
Site Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 2148
Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:48 am
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| Quote: | Does logic and science have 100% of all knowledge that exists anywhere and everywhere?
Yes, whether you like it or not. |
Science does not, first of all because there is still quite a lot that science cannot explain yet, and secondly because there is a lot that science may never be able to explain.
Consciousness, for example. The required textbook for my "Cognitive Neuropsychology" course at university was the book "The Undiscovered Mind" by John Horton. It explains why many scientists believe that human consciousness may never be understood.
Its also worth noting that science can explain the "how"s of the world, but the deeper "why"s. Thats where faith comes in. Faith and science are not necessarily diametrically opposed. Its just that they often deal with different things. Love could be explained scientificly by talking about the complex chemical reactions and so on that occur in the brain. But I doubt that anyone (theists, scientists, and athiests included) truly believe that concepts such as love can be explained by science and logic.
| Quote: | | That's a fairly dumb simile since the goldfish could easily determine that there is existance outside of the tank if it wasn't for the fact that their attention span only lasts 3 seconds. |
Some would suggest that the attention span of out current generation is approximately 3 seconds.  (Heh sorry just had to throw that in there!)
| Quote: | | I feel that all religions with the exeption of the ones void of dieties can be disproved with logic and science. ..... There's tons of scientific evidence that disproves any religion involving gods. |
We should be careful here with our terms. I doubt that many people today seriously believe in polytheism, ie "gods". I would be interested in hearing how science can disprove God's existance. (Singular, in the monotheism sense.) From my understanding, it is not possible to prove that God does not exist, whether it be using philisophical or scientific arguments. I've read some debates between theists and athiests and the athiests usually make a disclaimer during their opening remarks that they cannot conclusively disprove God's existence. This is why athiesm is often considered a faith of its own, since its main belief cannot be proven.
As far as science disproving God's existance, a recent book by Lee Strobel (former athiest, Yale Law School educated and former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune) called The Case for a Creator: A Journalist Investigates Scientific Evidence That Points Toward God, investigates modern scientific findings that actually point towards God's existance by interviewing scientists regarding many diverse fields, such as cosmology, biology, astronomy, physics, etc.
| Quote: | | I believe that all religions initially began as philosophies and guidelines for living a healthy life. |
If all religions are just philosophies, then I want no part of them. If the Bible is a made up book of stories and flights of fantasy ... if Jesus was not risen, then there's no reason to believe it over any other faith. But the fact is that, in my opinion, a world where God exists is preferrable to one where God does not. Of course, this brings up the question of "Who's right?" Theres a whole bunch of religions out there: Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, "New Age", Mormonism, Muslim, Hindu ... even Scientology.  But for me the things that separates Christianity from other faiths are threefold (I am referring here to the NT, I do not know as much about the OT):
1) Historical reliability (that what we read today is the same as when it was written, that the texts were written in a very close time period to when the events occurred, etc.)
2) Jesus (that Jesus was a unique figure in history and no other head religious figure even comes close)
3) Grace (that no other religion teaches grace ... and that it is the most important doctrine in Christianity or any other type of faith)
I'm working on a long essay / book that delves more deeply into these topics ... but since I've already gone off on a bit of a tangent here I won't go into more detail just now. 
Anyways, the original point of this post was to point out that God's existance cannot be disproven, via science or otherwise. Got a bit sidetracked there Of course, not being able to 100% disprove something does not mean it exists. Just because we cannot 100% disprove that unicorns exist doesn't mean that they do. But there are good reasons to believe that God exists, and in my opinion they do outweigh the evidence against. |
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Hiroshi
Expert
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 137
Location: Dis Pit
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:43 am
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| emmzee wrote: |
| Quote: | | I believe that all religions initially began as philosophies and guidelines for living a healthy life. |
If all religions are just philosophies, then I want no part of them. |
The key word was initially began. But on topic, either way thank goodness that my words were of my own personal opinion. Not trying to start anything.
Last edited by Hiroshi on Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:01 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Da_Goat
Moderator
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 2042
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA, Earth, The Milky Way, The Universe, Nothing and Nowhere.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:40 am
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| Quote: | | I am not 'religious', because that would mean that I have every single religion "going on", and serve multiple gods.... |
Um, according to dictionary.com (and practically everything else ), that's not what "religious" means at all. | Quote: | | There's tons of scientific evidence that disproves any religion involving gods. |
I don't know of any evidence that disproves God. Gives alternate possibilities, yes, but that doesn't make the theory of God illogical. | Quote: | | What I don't get are fundamentalists who believe everything in the bible is literal truth, it contradicts itself and has too many inacuracies for that to be true. |
Have you actually read the Bible, or are you just relying on what you've heard? If it's the former, please show me one contradiction. If it's the latter, please shut up.
Besides, it seems rather silly to use contradictions as an excuse for disproving the Bible if you put the amount of faith it appears you do in science. Or do you believe that all scientists agree on the evolutionary process? Or even the theory of evolution to begin with?
Sidenote:
| Quote: | | Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, "New Age", Mormonism, Muslim, Hindu ... even Scientology. |
Now, now, emmzee, let's not get snarky. I know I wouldn't want you rolling your eyes at my religion. Also, I believe by their own definition and classification (and if we're not going to mind their definitions while discussing them, who's definitions should we use?), LDS falls under "Christianity". |
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Dopefish
Way too much free time
Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 371
Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:33 am
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| Da_Goat wrote: | | Quote: | | There's tons of scientific evidence that disproves any religion involving gods. |
I don't know of any evidence that disproves God. Gives alternate possibilities, yes, but that doesn't make the theory of God illogical. |
This website disproves all Yaweh-based religions.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | What I don't get are fundamentalists who believe everything in the bible is literal truth, it contradicts itself and has too many inacuracies for that to be true. |
Have you actually read the Bible, or are you just relying on what you've heard? If it's the former, please show me one contradiction. If it's the latter, please shut up. |
I actually have read the bible (well, I stoped at the part of the New Testament where they just write letters to churches and boring stuff like that, it was more dull than reading all those measurments for stuff in the Old Testament). You want an example of a contradiction? Jesus was a popular guy, so popular that the Roman government had to capture him in a sneaky manner. Then when they ask the people if they want him to go free, they decide it would be better to release some random other guy. What's up with that!?
Do you really think that the world was made in seven days and that dinosours never existed? Dinosours don't fit in with the fundamentalist view because humans were already alive after less than a week since the world began. You could say that dinosours and humans lived at the same time for a while but radioactive dating proves otherwise.
This disproves Noah's Ark.
| Quote: | | Besides, it seems rather silly to use contradictions as an excuse for disproving the Bible if you put the amount of faith it appears you do in science. Or do you believe that all scientists agree on the evolutionary process? Or even the theory of evolution to begin with? |
Read these. Scientists really do believe in evolution. Fossil evidence alone proves evolution, unless you think radioactive dating is wrong and that all other forms of humans and animals died in "the great flood" or something (which the above link disproves). There's also the ice ages for which there is massive geological evidence for but go against the bible. |
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radray11
Member
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:42 am
Post subject: also.. |
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Have you ever heard of "1 day for man, yet a thousand unto God"
A dinosaur could become self-extinct if that was... never mind. This is already interesting enough. Science has actually proven Noahs Ark all the way to Jesus... but I guess you never watched "Mysteries of the Bible" on A&E... So if you want to disprove a little more, there's PROOF for the disproof... figure 
As far as religious goes, I was referring to some people who think that that is what it means. |
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Da_Goat
Moderator
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 2042
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA, Earth, The Milky Way, The Universe, Nothing and Nowhere.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:48 pm
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| Quote: | | I actually have read the bible (well, I stoped at the part of the New Testament where they just write letters to churches and boring stuff like that, it was more dull than reading all those measurments for stuff in the Old Testament). |
That's a shame. The letters are really what tie a lot of the Bible together. | Quote: | | Jesus was a popular guy, so popular that the Roman government had to capture him in a sneaky manner. Then when they ask the people if they want him to go free, they decide it would be better to release some random other guy. What's up with that!? |
What? Which Bible did you read? The majority of the Jews did have a problem with Jesus throughout the New Testament. And are you trying to say that Jesus never existed? Because, while it's true no direct evidence has ever been found, most historians (Christians, atheists, or otherwise) do believe he lived.
| Quote: | | Dinosours don't fit in with the fundamentalist view because humans were already alive after less than a week since the world began. You could say that dinosours and humans lived at the same time for a while but radioactive dating proves otherwise. |
...
Of course dinosaurs existed. While a few believe to the contrary, most Christian denominations do not take the week-long creation literally. As radray pointed out, 2 Peter 3:8 (one of those letters you found too boring to read) compares a single day to a thousand in God's eyes. This, too, could easily have been used to imply that God's view of time is monumentally broader than any human's.
| Quote: | | Scientists really do believe in evolution. Fossil evidence alone proves evolution, unless you think radioactive dating is wrong and that all other forms of humans and animals died in "the great flood" or something (which the above link disproves). There's also the ice ages for which there is massive geological evidence for but go against the bible. |
Yes, most scientists do believe in evolution. But even then, there are numerous disagreements about how evolution could come about. If you look at the original Darwinian theory, and then at the most widely-accepted belief in evolution today, many of the teachings are incredibly different.
Another area that most scientists can't agree on is the Big Bang. Was it the first occurence, or was it merely another universe in a whole chain of universes, stretching infintely back in time? If it was the latter, that could explain what God was doing during his existence. |
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Dopefish
Way too much free time
Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 371
Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:55 pm
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I wasn't trying to say that Jesus didn't exist, just that it's a weird thing to happen. Many Jews hated him but I was under the impression that more liked him. I'm pretty sure Jesus was a real guy, just not exactly as the bible made him seem.
As for the week-long creation not being literal; as I said in my first post that I can understand people who think the bible is metaphorical and not ment to be taken literally. Literalists are the people who think it happend just as described, dinosours didn't exist (I've met someone who thinks they're elephant/buffalo bones put together wrong), man hasn't changed over the tens of thousands of years we've existed (cro-magnon and neanderthals were the same as us), there was no ice age (or just one in the planet's history), day and night would exist even without the sun (god created them before he made the sun, which is basically a timepeice for us) and other silly things. Besides the "one day = 1000 years to god" argument doesn't work because the bible was written by humans, not god.
Evolution is proven by fossils of things we know to have evolved. Without evolution you can't explain many species that existed in the past that are similar yet different to modern species (like that tiny horse thing). Evolution doesn't really go against the bible if you take it metaphorically though.
Yes, the creation of the universe is a grey area for everyone. I have to question the big bang because I don't know where the two giant masses of matter and anti-matter came from. I question the religious thing because it's logical to assume God came from somewhere, complete omipotence is something I can't quite wrap my brain around. How long did he wait before he created the earth and stuff like that?
Off topic: I like how this thread is going. Most other forums don't allow debates like this. |
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radray11
Member
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:59 pm
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But God spoke to these writers. Also, these writers were very much like you and me (the only difference is that they had 100% of God's attention. That's still possible today... also, they were sinners, just like you and me.)
The only reason they have the big bang theory is that they don't know the truth... Ask your science teacher if he/she knows God (I know mine got all stiff about it)...
What really interests me is the fact that they can prove all this stuff, yet they can't prove this big bang... theories... guess what? A lot of old scientists have made error on theory, because there is always a new discovery to correct it. Maybe it's time they actually read the bible... I doubt they have ever. |
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Iuppiter
Member
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 30
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:35 pm
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| My view of God is that something created me, whether it was some sort of galactic being that gave me life, or just evolution of star dust. Either way really, God to me is just the universe. I'm Catholic, though not very "religious," and went to a Catholic school, so science is completely acceptable until it contradicts teachings of the Bible, which to my knowledge, it has yet to do. And I really doubt it ever will since the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways, it can be made to fit with anything science proves or discovers. |
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Dogbreath
Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 4439
Location: In the back of a jacked-up Ford.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:41 pm
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This thread might be useful for further insight. (Note, it actually turns into the religion thread around page 5)
Edit: And, for some weird reason, it won't let me leave page 1. That's just spooky... |
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