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Unknown_K
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:59 pm     Post subject: + Fastest PCI DOS video card Reply with quote

Just like topic says, whats the fastest PCI video card for dos games Tseng 6100, hercules ark2000 based stingray, etc?
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procerus
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:14 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Rob Muller, the author of UniRefresh, nVidia cards have very good VGA and VESA implementations.

If you don't have an AGP slot a PCI GeForce MX card would outperform any of the older stuff. Certainly the scores I get in DOS running the VSpeed tests for FastVid on my (AGP) GeForce2 GTS are easily three of four times those of older cards.

A lot of modern hardware does support older standards well. Certainly no graphics card can ignore VGA and VESA for the time being. And the hardware is faster these days. Furthermore, in DOS we don't have to worry about rubbish drivers since the games work directly with the hardware.

But make sure to use UMBPCI and FastVid (unless, of course, your game needs expanded memory or you're using an Athlon) since it doubles frame rates in games like Duke Nukem.
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Unknown_K
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:17 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

Since every card designed today pushes 3d not 2d I figured there must have been a card that peaked in the 2d game wars era.

I currently have a S3 Trio64V on a 486/160 16mb PCI motherboard.

I was looking for the best 2d card that doesnt need added software to be compatible with VESA game modes.
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procerus
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:20 am     Post subject: Reply with quote

Unknown_K said:
Quote:
I was looking for the best 2d card that doesnt need added software to be compatible with VESA game modes.


The VGA and VESA technologies use the same interface/bus that the 3D uses. Sure it's been optimised because of the need for speed Laughing that's demanded by 3D but the 2D uses that same bandwidth to advantage.

Certainly both nVidia and 3dfx (Voodoo3, 4 and 5) cards famously have excellent VESA implementations.

They will perform fine without UniRefresh but, if you don't use that, you have a 60Hz refresh rate which some of us find induces headaches. But the same refresh rate problem applies to older card too.

They will also perform fine without FastVid. FastVid is only necessary on Pentium 2s and 3s (don't know about 4s yet) because Intel was conservative about video settings/interface that only apply to DOS. And even then FastVid is often only of benefit on Intel motherboards. I only suggest that people with the right processor try the thing because it doubles the DOS video speed of my system!

At the end of the day, apart from Flight Unlimited 1 and System Shock 1, I've not seen too many DOS games that are that demanding of hardware anyway!

I'll have a look for DOS video benchmarks and post if I find anything useful.
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Unknown_K
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:42 am     Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I see what your saying now, so whats the best video card for DOS and windows 3.11 (since I have that on the machine also).. has to be PCI.

I think the Riva 128's have windows 3.1 drivers, not sure about anything newer.
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procerus
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2002 2:40 pm     Post subject: You got me! Reply with quote

Unknown_K, if I'd only known that you needed support for Windows 3.x!

I have just spent several days trying to get acceptible Windows 3.11 support out of my GeForce2 GTS without success. I can run VGA and 800x600x4 with the default Windows drivers. But anything else crashes the system. And there are no nVidia Windows 3 drivers for anything later than a TNT2!

I can't find any 3dfx drivers that support Windows 3 either!!!

So I owe you an apology. In 1995, when I installed the beta of Windows 95, I was running a Cirrus Logic 5434 and that ran Windows 3.11 at 1024x768x16 perfectly well. Much to my shame, these later speed demons don't seem to support Windows 3 to anything like the same extent.

So I can't really help you. Perhaps Matrox (who are a pretty cool company even if they lost the 3D edge years ago) might be an avenue to investigate. Certainly, in your case, the critical thing is decent Windows 3 support.

BTW have you tried Calmira?
http://www.calmira.org/
It's a bit too Windows 95 for many but it offers other ways to customize Windows 3. Windows 3 is a fine OS (being properly dependent on DOS) and I only realised how much I've missed it when I installed it the other day!
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Unknown_K
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:17 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, now we are on the same page. I just want the best I can get for the era the machine will operate in DOS/Win3.11. I have a TNT1 + Vodoo2 SLI in a p2-400 box for early windows 95 generation of games and a Xp1500 + ATI 9000 for current games.

Since all the ancient win3.11 hardware is dirt cheap I might as well put the best PC together for that era since its cheap to do.

I do have a matrox mystique but that wasnt the fastest win 3.11/dos card and I have the rainbow runner addon for that so dont want to waste it on a game rig.

So as far as I can tell a Riva 128 or a tseng 6100 is about the fastest for dos win3 that I know about. My TNT1 didnt come with 3.1 drivers from what I remember.

Another problem is that there are great windows 3.1 video cards that are very fast, but suck ass in DOS. I think the Tseng 6100 also has great support for OS/2 3 which I might install since it runs win3.x programs too.

Any ideas?
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procerus
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:44 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it just me and my searches or did they not do comparative benchmarks back in the days of DOS gaming!

Certainly I remember wanting a Tseng ET6000 (Videologic) card because it was supposed to be the DOS king. And articles like this confirm it-
http://www.heise.de/ct/english/96/08/172/

But whether there are cards that better tread the line between DOS speed and Windows effectiveness I really have no idea. And my googling hasn't turned up anything.

I suppose if you are buying these older cards off eBay you could always buy a few, try them out, keep the best and sell the rest (to recoup your money). Sorry not to be more help.
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Unknown_K
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:43 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a STB Velocity 128 4MB PCI coming in a few days to test. Was $5 + $2.25 shipping (cheap hobby). Thats the Riva 128 chipset and it does have windows 3.1 drivers from Nvidia site. I will probably get a Tseng 6100 also when I find one. Think the Riva has VESA 3.0 in bios. The 128 ZX is slightly faster from what I hear and supports 8mb but dont think I need it for win3.11.

For finding benchmarks I use google.com on newsgroups and see what people of that era thaught of the cards (they post thier benchmarks and system specs). Most of the benchmark websites came into being after windows 95 was the best gaming platform so DOS benchmarks are unavailable.

What would be a suitable real world benchmark for DOS perfomance?
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procerus
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 9:45 am     Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the ultimate games benchmark was surprisingly similar to one of today's. The original release of Quake (before GLQuake was even a twinkle in Carmack's eye) was a DOS game that demanded a lot of both the CPU and graphics card. These days the CPU will find it a stroll in the park so the graphics card should show up nicely.

Just find a copy of the game and run a timedemo on the console. I can't find the exact command in my archive (Aaahg! All that time and effort put into squirrelling things away and I can never find any of it! Crying ) but it's out there somewhere. Shit-Eating Grin
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Kazer0
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 7:01 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

holy crapomoli. You fingers must hurt. thats a ton of info.

I have a 3d rage pro II + dvd
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John The Ax
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 9:45 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't intefere. This is a conversation of the great gods who speak a different tounge than the rest of us.
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Unknown_K
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 10:31 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

Aww hell, its a simple question.. whats the fastest DOS card that has windows 3.1 drivers.
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procerus
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2002 8:56 am     Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Mighty Unknown_K? Didst thou hear the squeaking of mere mortals? Shit-Eating Grin

Yeah, seriously guys, talking (and typing) jibberish like this is merely what happens to you if you stay sitting at that keyboard for too long! Shifty

Oh, and Unknown_K, you could always try VSpeed for a more basic throughput test. It's available in a page off my FastVid link below.
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Kazer0
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:00 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey! I understand most of it. I do this stuff as a hobby.
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Unknown_K
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2002 9:15 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

Won a 4m cardex pci card (Tseng 6100) so when I get that I can do a good benchmark in quake 1
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Unknown_K
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:04 am     Post subject: Reply with quote

Havnt had a chance to do real benchmarks but here is something:

Kspeed4 (dos)

STB 128 (Riva 120), 4MB PCI
828% N
736% Q
899% L

Cardex (Tseng ET6000), 4MB PCI
915% N
834% Q
1000% L

The STB drivers for win3.11 crash, the cardex work great and fairly fast
The STB is VESA 3.0 compliant but the TSENG is 2.0 , not like it matters that much bit I think the Riva would be great for a MAME video card (has svhs and coax video out)

System:
486/133 OC to 160 (4x40)
16mb EDO

Was going to do quake benchmarks but a 486 system sucks for quake, need another benchmark.
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procerus
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 9:02 am     Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. The Tseng ET6000 looks more and more attractive to me. Not only does it support Windows 3.11 properly but it is also amply supported in SciTech Display Doctor. And it's fast too Shifty

I may have to grab one from eBay too, Unknown.
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Unknown_K
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 3:24 pm     Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the memory used on the cardex is a proprietary memory that reminds me of DDR because it sends data on rise and fall of clock.

I think I need to find an IDE PCI caching controller to finalize that dos box.
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jmmijo
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 9:47 am     Post subject: Reply with quote

Unknown_K wrote:


I think I need to find an IDE PCI caching controller to finalize that dos box.


I've got a Promise PCI caching controller just collecting dust now. If you want it let me know Wink
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